Dust and health concerns

Construction and repair of Classical Guitar and related instruments
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senunkan
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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by senunkan » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:21 am

tybon wrote:Just a quick update. I got the Shop Fox W1830 a few weeks ago. I have started to do some heavy sanding and I can feel a big difference. There is a nice breeze in the room and I can see the dust flowing towards the filter, which is already quite dirty now. I have more peace of mind now when working. I should got it earlier!
Great looking workshop!
How did you ever manage to keep it so clean :?:
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simonm
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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by simonm » Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:38 am

Bumping this thread with a couple of questions.


Q.1
The Jet unit Les mentioned on the previous page is readily available in various parts of Europe. I am very strongly considering getting one of these in the next couple of weeks. Anything else in the European market that I should look at before I hand out my money?

Q.2

I want to replace my bottom of the barrel electric jigsaw with something better (maybe a semi-pro bosch or a makita). In the process I have been considering dust control as well. In reviews the only hand tool extractor system that gets mentioned seems to be the one from Festool. Apart from improvising a connection to a normal vacuum cleaner, can anyone recommend a suitable hand tool dust collection system?


Thanks.

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Steve O
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dust masks

Post by Steve O » Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:22 pm

I wrote this before I realized this was an old thread...but posted it anyway as consumer grade dust masks are garbage.

You say that "I still feel like I'm inhaling dust even when wearing a dust mask." If you have dirty boogers after wearing a dust mask, then the dust mask is not doing it's job. Most likely the mask does not fit your face well and air is leaking past the mask at the bridge of your nose.

While I get stuffy while wearing a dust mask - I think due to the high humidity and general sinus issues - I don't get dirty boogers while wearing a mask. I work in industrial settings that are extremely dirty and try to take good care of my lungs (and eyes and ears and fingers).

For home use in the woodworking shop, I use Lee Valley's "Comfort-fit Respirator". This is a silicone rubber mask with replaceable N95 paper filter elements. Things I like are 1) the rubber mask seals to my face well, 2) the strap system allows the mask to hang around my neck when I don't want it on my face, 3) it is light, not bulky and I can manage to wear safety glasses and hearing protection (muffs) all at the same time. Unfortunately with this type of mask you cannot test the mask-to-face seal. I replace the paper element in this mask about once a year.

Most consumer grade paper masks are garbage. If you want to use a paper mask, get a real mask that has a metal/foam adjustment at the nose-bridge, get an exhalation valve to help prevent safety glass fogging, and get a mask that has a N95 or higher rating. Masks that don't mention their filtration efficiency should be avoided. I like the Moldex 2700 N95 mask with handy-strap. I keep one of these stashed in my hard-hat for when unexpected dust events happen. They cost $5 each, but at home one of these masks will last for months. Surprisingly the same model with N100 rating doesn't fit my face well and always leaks at the bridge of my nose, so I use the N95 mask.

I personally don't worry too much about filtration efficiency of N95 vs. N100 (or P100 which also protects against hydrocarbon aerosols). It is more important to insure a good mask-to-face seal.

For power sanding at home I connect the sander to a shop vac with HEPA exhaust filter and I wear a dust mask.

Basically if you get a comfortable mask that works well, you will wear it most of the time. A cheap mask that is uncomfortable and doesn't filter well will sit on the shelf collecting dust.

For work I use MSA Comfo-Elite half-mask respirators (with organic cartridges and separate dust prefilters). The silicone half-mask conforms to my face and provides a good seal. You can easily test the seal by placing the palms of your hands over the cartridges and breathing in; if the mask sucks to your face you have a good seal. Sometimes I use the 3M 6800 full face respirator with 2091 P100 dust filters. This is a comfortable mask that is more balanced than a half mask. It also keep dust out of your eyes. It has lower profile than the half-mask allowing you to crawl through smaller spaces where the half-mask cartridges tend to catch on protrusions and rip the mask off your face.

Now I have to post two photos. I sometimes work in a Chinese coal mine, in the processing plant. Personal protective equipment in China is a sign of status; only wealthy foreigners get PPE. Welders and labourers work in dusty environments that completely plug off my dust mask within 2 hours (I have to leave the job-site to get to a clean area to take my mask off and replace the plugged cartridges). This is me:
IMG_5161 ppe.JPG
I saw one of the welders walking past me at work....he actually had a respirator hanging around his neck...obviously unused because his face is black with dust. His lungs are just as full of dust. Sad that he probably doesn't have the education to understand the danger; or perhaps his boss refuses to buy replacement filter cartridges so once his cartridges are plugged he has to breath dust.

That's dust on his face!
DSCN5792 thats dirt not a mask.jpg
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larryguitar
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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by larryguitar » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:33 pm

I see my favorite dust mask, the Dustfoe 88, has been discontinued! I believe it was designed for working in mines. It was pretty small and had replaceable filters. I used it all the time when I was building furniture in a wood shop. I hate those paper N-95 masks, they're too hot and don't seal well against the dust.

Some people say the Elipse P100 is a worthy successor, I don't know, I've never used it. I don't miss the dust from working in the shop. It seems to me that guitar makers generate less dust than furniture makers. I should have tried to build guitars instead of furniture.
Last edited by larryguitar on Sat Jun 17, 2017 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Michael.N.
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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by Michael.N. » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:37 pm

simonm wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:38 am
Bumping this thread with a couple of questions.


Q.1
The Jet unit Les mentioned on the previous page is readily available in various parts of Europe. I am very strongly considering getting one of these in the next couple of weeks. Anything else in the European market that I should look at before I hand out my money?

Q.2

I want to replace my bottom of the barrel electric jigsaw with something better (maybe a semi-pro bosch or a makita). In the process I have been considering dust control as well. In reviews the only hand tool extractor system that gets mentioned seems to be the one from Festool. Apart from improvising a connection to a normal vacuum cleaner, can anyone recommend a suitable hand tool dust collection system?


Thanks.
I have a very nice old Bosch jigsaw but i can't say I've ever used it for making guitars. Must be limited use, surely?
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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by simonm » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:39 pm

simonm wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:38 am
Bumping this thread with a couple of questions.


Q.1
The Jet unit Les mentioned on the previous page is readily available in various parts of Europe. I am very strongly considering getting one of these in the next couple of weeks. Anything else in the European market that I should look at before I hand out my money?

Q.2

I want to replace my bottom of the barrel electric jigsaw with something better (maybe a semi-pro bosch or a makita). In the process I have been considering dust control as well. In reviews the only hand tool extractor system that gets mentioned seems to be the one from Festool. Apart from improvising a connection to a normal vacuum cleaner, can anyone recommend a suitable hand tool dust collection system?


Thanks.
Still wondering about my two questions especially Q.1 :-)

I see that Rutlands & another shop have their own brands, which look very like the Wen 3 speed units sold in the US, and are about half the price of the smaller Jet unit.

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DenisJ_III
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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by DenisJ_III » Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:58 am

simonm wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 11:38 am
Bumping this thread with a couple of questions.


Q.1
The Jet unit Les mentioned on the previous page is readily available in various parts of Europe. I am very strongly considering getting one of these in the next couple of weeks. Anything else in the European market that I should look at before I hand out my money?
Simon,

The Record Power AC400 unit seems comparable with the Jet one, but at a lower price point - worth a look, perhaps.

Denis

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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by simonm » Sun Jun 18, 2017 8:27 pm

simonm wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:39 pm
….
I see that Rutlands & another shop have their own brands, which look very like the Wen 3 speed units sold in the US, and are about half the price of the smaller Jet unit.
DenisJ_III wrote:
Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:58 am

..
The Record Power AC400 unit seems comparable with the Jet one, but at a lower price point - worth a look, perhaps.

Denis

Thanks Denis, the Record Power AC400 is in fact one from "the other shop" in my post but had forgotten the name. This, the Rutlands and the Wen (from the USA) seem to be almost identical and as you say comparable to the Jet with an advantage over the Jet 500 of having a timer not to mention the price. Shipping from the UK to mainland Europe is quite reasonable too.

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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by tom0311 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:48 pm

simonm wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:39 pm
I see that Rutlands & another shop have their own brands, which look very like the Wen 3 speed units sold in the US, and are about half the price of the smaller Jet unit.
I've got the Rutlands filter, about £130 or so. Not particularly powerful - certainly doesn't feel like it turns the air around in my workshop, but it does indeed collect dust. If I've done some sanding (with a mask on) and I'm about to leave the workshop, I hoover up as much dust as I can, kick it into reverse and blow air wildly around with the filter on a bench in the middle of the room before I walk out. It does collect a lot of it if you do that!

The filters are housed in cardboard which will break after you take the filter out to clean it a few times. I'm trying to decide whether to buy more filters or just buy a better air filter. I had a good look at the Jet one but I don't know if it's any stronger. Obviously they're just a bit of equipment to use alongside things like face masks and dust extractors if you've got power tools. Personally I use it alongside a face mask and a hoover as I don't have a thickness sander or anything mega.

EDIT: The Jet is also 100 watt and has the same filtration specs. The filter removal looks better, as it has proper clips. With the Rutlands one you have to bend the cardboard round the metal which ruins them after a while.
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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by simonm » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:39 pm

I have the Rutlands one coming later this week. With the way the UK pound is, buying from the UK is a pleasure at the moment! I am thinking of getting 2 filters to once I see how this one works I will get the Record Power that Denis mentioned and compare the two. I suspect they are the same with different labels.

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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by simonm » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:47 pm

Over on ANZLF there is also a recent "Dust" thread. One post is pretty frightening but worth a read.

If you are putting off dust control, please read this one: http://www.anzlf.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7786#p84659. I have had to visit my doc recently due to some breathing issues and dust is the likely culprit so that particular post is a very timely warning to get out the wallet while you can.

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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by Paul Micheletti » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:24 pm

I built a small room for humidity control out of one of my garage car bays. It is walled in with a door so that I can humidify/dehumidify that room and keep my wood stash nice and happy. This is also the room where I do most of the hand tool work (90% of the building process).

I do occasionally do a tiny bit of sanding in this room, but only with sandpaper held by hand with a backer block. If I have a lot of sanding to do or any powered sanding, then the project moves outside of my work room to the other car bay where the power tools are located. This keeps the dust from my clean room so I have a sanctuary where I can work that is mostly dust free.

When I work using power tools, I have a small dust collector that connects to whatever single tool is in use. I just drag the hose around connect it to the tool under use. SInce there is only one of me in my shop, one station at a time is adequate. And I open a couple of doors in to the garage to get air flow through the shop space when operating dusty power tools and wear a decent dust mask.

Like larryguitar, I loved the dustfoe88. I now have a North dust mask that seems like a pretty good substitute that is sold by Lee Valley as a "Comfort-Fit Respirator". It seems to block as much of the dust as the dustfoe. It comes in 3 sizes. I bought all 3 sizes not knowing which would fit best over my large snoz, and returned the two that didn't fit as well. I made sure that Lee Valley was fine with that before purchasing.

I am quite allergic to wood dust (particularly the cedar family which I use a lot), so this level of awareness is really needed in my case. I'm reminded very quickly when my dust control methods are inadequate, so that is additional protection against long term exposure issues.

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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by pogmoor » Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:43 pm

I am glad to see this thread revived; I think it is an important topic. I once had a Harald Petersen guitar, bought in about 1963. I heard a few years later that Petersen had died from lung disease thought to be the result of breathing wood dust - at the fairly early age of 59.
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Michael.N.
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Re: Dust and health concerns

Post by Michael.N. » Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:57 pm

Ever present danger in a woodworking shop and it's very difficult to control. Sanding is the worst offender, even doing it by hand. Ideally I'd like a workshop on ground level that opened up to the great outdoors, so that a small workbench could be wheeled in and out of the workshop. Do the sanding in the open air. When the weather has allowed I've done a little of this and it's a much more pleasant task.
Years ago I paid a visit to a local joiners shop who had offered to do a bit of resawing for me. They had 4 or 5 stationary machines and each of them had a giant pile of sawdust next to it. Back in those days I don't think they were the slightest bit concerned with extraction. Extraction meant sweeping it all up after the sawdust pile had become unbearable. The old man died around 15 years ago although the son is still around. I can't say that he's looking too healthy but then again he probably thinks the same of me.
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