Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral III Allegro -D09 Video

Audio and video recordings of the works of Agustín Barrios Mangoré
Forum rules
III Our MP3, OGG, WMV, MOV, Authors' rights

Title format: Composer's surname, forename - op.xx/xx Title - tags (if known)
e.g. Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - Julia Florida - D08 Video
or Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - op.08/04 Valse - D08
For more details see instructions here.
File access restricted to members who have made at least 2 posts.
orbiterred

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by orbiterred » Thu Mar 18, 2010 6:50 pm

I wouldn't exactly call my performance slow :P

User avatar
sniggl
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:18 am
Location: Munich

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by sniggl » Thu Mar 18, 2010 7:56 pm

GEO wrote:
sniggl wrote:...the solemn charakter of this Allegro is very important. And you can not play it "solemn" if you play it too fast.

My two cents.

Stefan
Actually, according to my dictionary, "solemne" not only means "solemn" but it means "completely" or "utterly" as, e.g., you would say "he is utterly (completely) reliable." In this regard, "Allegro solemne" could be interpreted as "allegro molto" or "allegro assai." That would seem to emphasize a more hurried and less lyrical interpretation. A "solemn" allegro comes close to being an oxymoron when you focus on the root meaning of "allegro", viz., happy or cheerful.

But my preference for the faster, more hurried style stems from providing more contrast to the contemplative, and slower, first two movements. I think, when treating all three movements together as a single piece, a faster third movement, with more bite, provides the more complete experience. Who knew that Barrios could be a controversial as...health care! :lol:

geo
:oops: :lol: you are probably right. But nevertheless I like the way Rob plays it. Of course the question is how slow he plays the previous movement. Contrast is relative.

Stefan
Guitar: Sebastian Stenzel (2008)

"Es ist schon alles gesagt, nur noch nicht von allen." ( Karl Valentin)

User avatar
andi33x
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:00 pm
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by andi33x » Thu Mar 18, 2010 8:52 pm

orbiterred wrote:Growing up in a very rural area and then moving to a busy city to study I can't help but feel a sense melancholy or longing for a simpler existence at times (my hometown consists of 1 street and zero street lights! :P) and I imagine this to be what Barrios had in mind when writing the piece, especially since to me the Solemne conjures up a more introspective meaning/feeling. And with absolutely no disrespect intended I think if you worry too much about what the traditionalists think you'll find it very hard to break any new ground ;) Cheers! Rob
Hi Rob,
I don't mind what Barrios thought about it or which is the traditional view of it. I also have played it in quite another way, but this is not interesting when hearing YOUR version. The only interesting thing here is what YOU thought about it since YOU make the music.
And let me say: You did it in a great way. Your playing is outstanding and I enjoy your interpretation!
:bravo: :bravo:
Andi
There is nothing more beautiful than the sound of a guitar - maybe aside from that of two guitars (Frederic Chopin)

User avatar
GEO
Posts: 6081
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: US

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by GEO » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:03 pm

orbiterred wrote:I wouldn't exactly call my performance slow :P
I absolutely agree, Rob. In fact, I went back and clocked it with my metronome and it came in at 96 bpm and that's, of course, a definite allegro. It's also a lot faster than I can play it. :shock:

geo
(US) (GER) The greatest good you can do for another is not just share your riches, but to reveal to him his own - Disraeli

User avatar
Erik Zurcher
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 14856
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 8:38 pm
Location: The Hague, Netherlands

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by Erik Zurcher » Thu Mar 18, 2010 9:37 pm

That was great, Rob! I won't argue about musical interpretation. This is your version and I love it. :bye:
Reedition Domingo Esteso by Conde Hermanos 2004; Kenny Hill, model Barcelona 2001
"While you try to master classical guitar, prepare for a slave's life: the guitar will forever be your master and you its slave".

orbiterred

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by orbiterred » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:01 am

Cheers Guys!

orbiterred

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by orbiterred » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:50 am

GEO wrote:
sniggl wrote:...the solemn charakter of this Allegro is very important. And you can not play it "solemn" if you play it too fast.

My two cents.

Stefan
Actually, according to my dictionary, "solemne" not only means "solemn" but it means "completely" or "utterly" as, e.g., you would say "he is utterly (completely) reliable." In this regard, "Allegro solemne" could be interpreted as "allegro molto" or "allegro assai." That would seem to emphasize a more hurried and less lyrical interpretation. A "solemn" allegro comes close to being an oxymoron when you focus on the root meaning of "allegro", viz., happy or cheerful.

But my preference for the faster, more hurried style stems from providing more contrast to the contemplative, and slower, first two movements. I think, when treating all three movements together as a single piece, a faster third movement, with more bite, provides the more complete experience. Who knew that Barrios could be a controversial as...health care! :lol:

geo
Geo, I hate to beat a dead horse, but I also love a good debate, and from my searches of the standard dictionaries of 'solemn' (although i know the Spanish spelling is solemne) the most common definitions i come up with from many different sources including webster's etc... are:

awe-inspiring : sublime <solemn beauty> b : marked by grave sedateness and earnest sobriety <a solemn gathering>

gravely or somberly impressive; causing serious thoughts or a grave mood

Somberly or gravely impressive. Performed with full ceremony:

Maybe I'm totally off the mark but I think the Spanish word has many of the same connotations, I also searched around a bit and I couldn't find anything that described Solemn as "completely" or "utterly" I'd be interested to know what your dictionary is? Cheers again :P Rob

orbiterred

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by orbiterred » Fri Mar 19, 2010 6:57 am

On a slightly different note, just to talk about the meaning of all these crazy "tempo words" :P. Personally I think many of them were chosen by composers and came into vogue over time because they give a straight ahead direction with a very loose meaning and are able to conjure up different ideas in different people. I would never look at my metronome to figure out what a 'moderato' was, or an Allegro, or whatever, because that depends very significantly on the piece of music, not on a "decided upon metronome marking". Theres my two cents :P

User avatar
GEO
Posts: 6081
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: US

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by GEO » Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:05 am

orbiterred wrote:...

Maybe I'm totally off the mark but I think the Spanish word has many of the same connotations, I also searched around a bit and I couldn't find anything that described Solemn as "completely" or "utterly" I'd be interested to know what your dictionary is? Cheers again :P Rob
Try this (meaning #2) http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/solemne

geo
(US) (GER) The greatest good you can do for another is not just share your riches, but to reveal to him his own - Disraeli

User avatar
andi33x
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:00 pm
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by andi33x » Sat Mar 20, 2010 3:23 pm

Isn't it a fact that Barrios did not write down his music? I don't know that exactly but I heard that or red that in a score. Then the tempo has been added by someone else who wrote the score from hearing the recordings of Barrios.

So for me solemn is in reality an english word here. And its meaning fits to a cathedral and has nothing to do with the speed itself in the first instance.
There is nothing more beautiful than the sound of a guitar - maybe aside from that of two guitars (Frederic Chopin)

orbiterred

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by orbiterred » Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:01 pm

Thats an interesting point andi! I've never thought about that before...

User avatar
GEO
Posts: 6081
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: US

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by GEO » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:04 pm

andi33x wrote:Isn't it a fact that Barrios did not write down his music? I don't know that exactly but I heard that or red that in a score. Then the tempo has been added by someone else who wrote the score from hearing the recordings of Barrios.

So for me solemn is in reality an english word here. And its meaning fits to a cathedral and has nothing to do with the speed itself in the first instance.
That's not quite correct, Andi. According to Rico Stover's biography of Barrios ("Six Silver Moonbeams"), Barrios was very negligent about writing down his music. In fact, once his friend Borda y Pagola, with whom Barrios was staying, locked him in his room and refused to let him out unless he wrote down the pieces he said he would. Barrios, incidentally, was a good calligrapher and artist. His cavalier attitude toward writing down his music might have come from his feeling that it was a gift to people and not something to be treated like property. Barrios' music is in the public domain (although he died in 1944) because he never secured the copyright.

In La Catedral, the word used is "Solemne" which is Spanish (English would be "solemn") and is definitely Barrios'. La Catedral was, in fact, written down by Barrios early on after it's composition in 1921. We know that when Barrios played it for Segovia in Montevideo in the 20's, Segovia requested a copy of it and Barrios said he would send it to him. According to Segovia, he never received a copy and that's why he never played the work (nor did he ever play anything of Barrios, having said once that Barrios was a poor composer for the guitar).

geo
(US) (GER) The greatest good you can do for another is not just share your riches, but to reveal to him his own - Disraeli

User avatar
GEO
Posts: 6081
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:20 pm
Location: US

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by GEO » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:26 pm

Speaking of the Allegro Solemne, I just heard a 1928 recording of Barrios playing La Catedral on You Tube (at that time the Prelude had not been composed, so it was just the last two movements of the final work). His tempo in the Allegro Solemne is just a sliver faster than Rob's but the impression is definitely less lyrical and more hurried.

This is not to say that such an interpretation is the definitive one (some people, for example, think that Stravinsky's recording of his own work is not as good as that by other conductors), but it is interesting to hear Barrios' own take on it. Pepe Romero's take on it, also on YouTube, is midway between Barrios' and Rob's--to my ears,anyway. Pepe, however, finishes it with a great rallentando and dimuendo

geo
(US) (GER) The greatest good you can do for another is not just share your riches, but to reveal to him his own - Disraeli

User avatar
andi33x
Posts: 637
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2009 7:00 pm
Location: Munich, Germany

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by andi33x » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:59 pm

GEO wrote:That's not quite correct, Andi.
Geo, you may be right. As I wrote, I don't know that exactly. But I remember now where I have read this information. It was in the enclosure of an old disc of JW's recordings of Barrios works. But this disc is 30 years old and I don't have it at the moment.
There is nothing more beautiful than the sound of a guitar - maybe aside from that of two guitars (Frederic Chopin)

orbiterred

Re: Barrios Mangoré, Agustín - La Catedral, III Allegro - D09

Post by orbiterred » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:34 pm

GEO wrote:
orbiterred wrote:...

Maybe I'm totally off the mark but I think the Spanish word has many of the same connotations, I also searched around a bit and I couldn't find anything that described Solemn as "completely" or "utterly" I'd be interested to know what your dictionary is? Cheers again :P Rob
Try this (meaning #2) http://www.spanishdict.com/translate/solemne

geo
But lets not forget the first meaning in that definition is:

Solemne
adjective
1. formal, solemn (con pompa, importante); solemn (serio)
una promesa solemne -> a solemn promise

Exactly the same as the English word (in fact it uses the English word :P), and I believe an exceedingly common usage compared to "utter or complete". Anyways, there is no 'right' or 'wrong' in any of this and I'm so glad my interpretation has sparked some discussion, isn't that what art is all about?

Cheers and Thank you to everyone who has commented!

Rob

Return to “Our recordings of Agustín Barrios Mangoré”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests