[PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

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[PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by bukena » Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:49 pm

Alright folks,

I've been working on Open C tuning (CGCGCE) for classical guitar and I really like it. I've been transcribing some Weiss and Lauffensteiner sonatas in this tuning, and I would like to get your opinion. This is a very beautiful piece of music.

I am starting a discussion thread on the Public Space forum to debate the pros and cons of Open C.

I have included the tablature version as the excellent adjunct that it is to standard notation. Please let me know what you think of it, did you like it?, would you do it again?.


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tom jobim

Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by tom jobim » Tue Dec 02, 2008 9:47 pm

Hi Bukena,
Just downloaded and took a peek and am really impressed. I am very interested in open tunings. I plan on spending more time with this piece.
peace, sven :merci: :bravo: :bye:

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Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by owl » Tue Dec 02, 2008 10:51 pm

Of course it's great Armando... as your work is always :bravo:
You know how I feel about these pieces... I always love your presentation too! :mrgreen:

Thank you

Never, ever give up!... I leave my songprint on your heart.


Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by bukena » Wed Dec 03, 2008 4:46 am

Thanks guys... I love you Owl!.

But listen, I am not looking for Kudos (they are always welcome, of course and I will thank you for them) but what I really want to know is what you think of Open C tuning. When I talk about this with my friends I just get these blank stares.

Know what I mean?.

Have fun!


EDIT: I corrected an error on the tab on meas. 22.

tom jobim

Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by tom jobim » Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:47 pm

Hey B,
Forget about the blank stares. I feel that you are really on to something. The bottom line is if the music improves in some way or another. As you know, any exploration into new areas will only expand the capabilities of the instrument. Unfortunately, many of us are so entrenched in the common practice side of the instrument that we "can't see the forest through the trees." I am a huge fan of Adrian Legg who also is adept at changing tunings while playing. I know he is a steel stringer and more of an improviser but he is almost exclusively an open tuning player and very effective at it. I have experimented improvising on many of his tunings and had a ball but never tried to actually compose something using them yet. I am not just complimenting you. I feel you are fulfilling a great need in this area and my stares are in wide eyed anticipation!
peace, sven :bye:


Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by MartinY » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:11 pm

Scordatura is a hot topic on all string instruments. A lot of professional violin family instrument players just will not do it, for instance the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante, which should have the violin in standard tuning and the viola up a semitone, is commonly played from published versions in standard tuning.

I think players are more or less polarized so you are either a standard tuning person or a scordatura fan with little in between. Personally I think it is great, though some lyra viol tunings are so extreme they require restringing the instrument which is going a bit far, so I would make a standard tuning version of these. Once you go down that route people then divide into notes versus tab players. I like French tab, just like on the lute as guitar tab looks like upside down Italian tablature to me and my brain begins to rotate when I read it. Another advantage of French tab is that you can put fingering on it without it interfering with the note specification. I have not looked at any Weiss manuscripts for decades but I seem to remember Weiss used French tab.

The Weiss piece should sound much better in your tuning because of the extra resonance. It looks to me as though it has more resonance in your tuning than on the original baroque lute, is that correct? I would love to try it but I can't read the staff notation or the Milan tab... sorry.

One of the most extreme retunings I know is the Biber Resurrection Sonata on the violin where you not only retune but swop the string channels for the middle two strings over. (You can't do this on a guitar unless it has a very non standard bridge.) This results in you having an instrument which, as it would almost certainly be gut strung, cannot be used for anything else that day as it gets so upset by the experience.

Good luck with the tuning and try some other pieces


Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by MartinY » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:32 pm

In the C tuning, you do not put a heavy gauge bottom e-string on do you?

When I get the chance this weekend I am going to compare the sound of a slack E down at C with a gut strung 76cm lute which I happen to have in the house. I believe the slack E will be as good a bass as Weiss could have got out his gut basses.


Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by bukena » Fri Dec 05, 2008 5:49 pm

I contacted Savarez regarding the low tension of the 6th string tuned to C and this is what they replied:
Savarez wrote:We would recommend you our DO-C 8th string (silver plated wound on nylon) / item-code 5208R, designed for guitars with additional basses.
I can't wait to try it.



Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by MartinY » Sat Dec 06, 2008 4:14 pm

I have compared the guitar bass string sound with the low bases on a gut strung lute. The lute has gut rope basses on an octave strung pair, with a plain gut at the octave. If I remember rightly there are paintings of Weiss playing the lute at the Dresden court and his lute seems to have thinner strings than ropes on the basses, possibly loaded strings if we are to believe the theories about metal loaded gut strings. I am sure lute historians have written at great length about what they believe Weiss strung his lute with.

Anyway, the standard E-string down at C sounded pretty good, though of course different compared to a gut rope. I have a gut rope on the A below the C and the sound of that is pretty poor, so you might consider that C as the lowest good note obtainable at 76 cms with strings like that. Remember the lute is good bit longer than the 65cm guitar. I think it is probably in acoustic proportion, (sorry I think a tone too short of proportion on reflection).

So - I found the E string at C is probably comparable, or even better, to what Weiss would have had. Presumably with the heavy gause strings for 10-string guitars on number 6 you could go even lower to A if you really wanted to but then you are really getting into 10-string territory and I can't imagine it would be very useful to go lower as then what do you do with the upper strings.


Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by henkk » Fri Mar 13, 2009 7:13 pm

thank you, I'm an great admiror of S.L. Weiss, but I never played anything of him.
I wil definetly try to open C tuning

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Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by Kozak » Tue Jun 13, 2017 11:10 pm

This is fantastic! now I need more open C pieces :)

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Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Wed Jun 14, 2017 1:45 am

Thank you for the pdf of this piece! :bye:

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Re: [PDF] Weiss, S. L. - Fantasie in Cm - Open C Tuning

Post by attila57 » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:36 pm

Thanks! This is great stuff, indeed!
Music to hear, why hear'st thou music sadly?
Sweets with sweets war not, joy delights in joy...

William Shakespeare, Sonnet 8

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