Lauro Vals Venezolano 2: Two time signatures bracketed together

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Cass Couvelas
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Lauro Vals Venezolano 2: Two time signatures bracketed together

Post by Cass Couvelas » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:29 pm

In Lauro's Vals Venezolano 2, in the Alirio Diaz edition I'm using, the time signature given at the start of the piece is 3:4 and 6:8, bracketed together. What does this signify?
Bracketed signature.jpg
Thank you in advance!
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Last edited by Cass Couvelas on Mon May 01, 2017 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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bert
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Re: Two time signatures bracketed together

Post by bert » Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:42 pm

It means that some measures are played as 3 quarter and some as 6 eights. Something similar happens in Bernstein's 'America' from the West Side Story. In that case Bernstein alternates between the two and it is called hemiola.

Cass Couvelas
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Re: Lauro Vals Venezolano 2: Two time signatures bracketed together

Post by Cass Couvelas » Mon May 01, 2017 1:50 pm

Many thanks indeed, Bert. I'll look into hemiola.
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Lauro Vals Venezolano 2: Two time signatures bracketed together

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Mon May 01, 2017 2:30 pm

Also note to look out for both times superimposed on each other at the same time, e.g. perhaps 6/6 on top over 3/4 in the bass. Plus, in this repertoire these things often show up even when the double time sig is not used, its a signature feature of the style.

And while with hemiola, look out as well for the hemiola expressed as 2 minims/half notes over a 3 time background, e.g. ONE two THREE one TWO three ...
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Re: Lauro Vals Venezolano 2: Two time signatures bracketed together

Post by RobMacKillop » Mon May 01, 2017 3:43 pm

It's fun to clap two 6/8 (two notes of 3/8 length) in your hands, while beating three single beats with your foot, or vice versa.

Cass Couvelas
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Re: Lauro Vals Venezolano 2: Two time signatures bracketed together

Post by Cass Couvelas » Mon May 01, 2017 4:37 pm

Thank you both very much. Your advice will certainly help me understand the rhythms in this work.

While I've got the image of the extract from this score showing above, can I ask a subsidiary (off topic) question about it? The two slurs shown in this extract both have short vertical strokes crossing them. They only appear in these two positions, nowhere else – all other slurs are normal. What are these little vertical marks telling me?
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Lauro Vals Venezolano 2: Two time signatures bracketed together

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Mon May 01, 2017 5:23 pm

Cass Couvelas wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 4:37 pm
While I've got the image of the extract from this score showing above, can I ask a subsidiary (off topic) question about it? The two slurs shown in this extract both have short vertical strokes crossing them. They only appear in these two positions, nowhere else – all other slurs are normal. What are these little vertical marks telling me?
Not having access to my copy right now, are there other instances of the same note groups elsewhere in the piece, with normal looking slurs? Because that usage looks like the old fashioned way to show editorial slurs, not present in the original ms but assumed to be correct, not least in comparison with other similar passages.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

Andre
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Re: Lauro Vals Venezolano 2: Two time signatures bracketed together

Post by Andre » Mon May 01, 2017 5:39 pm

Cass Couvelas wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 4:37 pm
While I've got the image of the extract from this score showing above, can I ask a subsidiary (off topic) question about it? The two slurs shown in this extract both have short vertical strokes crossing them. They only appear in these two positions, nowhere else – all other slurs are normal. What are these little vertical marks telling me?
Hi,
I play this piece and also have a Diaz revised edition. (The publisher is Broekmans and Poppel out of Amsterdam).
The first few measures look to be identical to yours, except for that little vertical stroke, which doesn't appear. Mine shows as a standard notation slur. My edition is quite old, from 1963. Is yours perhaps older, or newer?
look out as well for the hemiola expressed as 2 minims/half notes over a 3 time background, e.g. ONE two THREE one TWO three ...
Indeed. When I was learning this piece, my teacher had circled the beats in a 3/2 time signature.

As an aside, if I'm practicing this piece using the metronome, I like to set it at one beat per measure, i.e. accenting the dotted half-note. I don't know if that's proper or not, I never ran it by my teacher at the time, but it sure is less annoying when playing these up tempo pieces.
Best regards,
Andre

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Lauro Vals Venezolano 2: Two time signatures bracketed together

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Mon May 01, 2017 5:54 pm

Andre wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 5:39 pm
As an aside, if I'm practicing this piece using the metronome, I like to set it at one beat per measure, i.e. accenting the dotted half-note. I don't know if that's proper or not, I never ran it by my teacher at the time, but it sure is less annoying when playing these up tempo pieces.
That would be an interesting challenge since it places the tick quite a long way apart. I would rather set it to the quaver/8th note, which stays the same while the metric grouping changes around it.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

Cass Couvelas
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Re: Lauro Vals Venezolano 2: Two time signatures bracketed together

Post by Cass Couvelas » Mon May 01, 2017 6:07 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 5:23 pm
Cass Couvelas wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 4:37 pm
While I've got the image of the extract from this score showing above, can I ask a subsidiary (off topic) question about it? The two slurs shown in this extract both have short vertical strokes crossing them. They only appear in these two positions, nowhere else – all other slurs are normal. What are these little vertical marks telling me?
Not having access to my copy right now, are there other instances of the same note groups elsewhere in the piece, with normal looking slurs? Because that usage looks like the old fashioned way to show editorial slurs, not present in the original ms but assumed to be correct, not least in comparison with other similar passages.
Yes, that's exactly it. The exact same slurs in the same groups in the concluding section have no strokes through them and are normal-looking. All the other slurs in the entire score are normal-looking.
Andre wrote:
Mon May 01, 2017 5:39 pm
I play this piece and also have a Diaz revised edition. (The publisher is Broekmans and Poppel out of Amsterdam).
The first few measures look to be identical to yours, except for that little vertical stroke, which doesn't appear. Mine shows as a standard notation slur. My edition is quite old, from 1963. Is yours perhaps older, or newer?
It's V. D. Wal BV, Dirkshorn, Netherlands. I don't know the date.
"She ran the whole gamut of emotions from A to B."
(Dorothy Parker on Katharine Hepburn)

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