Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

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James Stephens
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Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby James Stephens » Sat Oct 30, 2010 9:27 pm

This is a continuation of gringo's thread, http://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=53318, in which we discussed music analysis and we analyzed Sor's Op. 35 study XVII in D.

A number of people wanted to take a look at Julia Florida by Agustin Barrios Mangore, so I thought I would open the discussion with the first four measures as I have it currently marked.

Edit: I added a couple of clarifications.

Edit: I should have stated here initially that the aim of this thread is (as was in the analysis in the linked thread) to discuss the theory behind this piece as a group with a discussion of the performance aspects after the major points of construction have been discussed. Those construction elements include the harmonic progression, phrases, overall form, and any other aspects of the concrete musical content of this piece that I didn't think to mention here. I encourage everyone to add any contribution that they can to that end, whether it's with constructive comments or attaching an annotated jpeg score.

If you want to discuss interpretation rather than analysis, please see this thread.


Thanks :D



--James
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Aryeh

Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby Aryeh » Sun Oct 31, 2010 3:32 am

This kind of chordal analysis is good but I think the individual phrases of the melody and how they are effected by the underlying harmony is even more important, I would show phrase markings in the score as well. This piece is a romantic lyrical one and you have to show how you would perform it as a singer or single note melody instrument would. Understanding all the lovely chords isn't going to help if the audience can't make sense of the melody line when you play it. There's also rubato and dynamics that you have to figure in once you understand the tension and release of the harmony and how that it is all related to the melodic line.

Also before any discussion of chords is introduced the form of the piece must be identified as well as the main melodic/rhythmic idea or theme(s) that recur throughout the piece. This is a very pretty piece but it's but it's too improvisatory especially in the second section where it goes into the minor for a full blown analysis IMO. Better a piece that has a sonata form or a theme and variations where you can really see how the composer is elaborating & expounding on his initial themes and ideas. That's just my opinion, please continue to analyze all you'd like :D
Last edited by Aryeh on Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby James Stephens » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:08 am

Aryeh wrote:This kind of chordal analysis is good but I think the individual phrases of the melody and how they are effected by the underlying harmony is even more important, I would show phrase markings in the score as well. This piece is a romantic lyrical one and you have to show how you would perform it as a singer or single note melody instrument would. Understanding all the lovely chords isn't going to help if the audience can't make sense of the melody line when you play it.

Also before any discussion of chords is introduced the form of the piece must be identified. This is a very pretty piece but it's but it's too improvisatory especially in the second section where it goes into the minor for a full blown analysis IMO. Better a piece that has a sonata form or a theme and variations where you can really see how the composer is elaborating & expounding on his initial themes and ideas. That's just my opinion, please continue to analyze all you'd like :D


The T marks the phrase. I should've made that more clear. I've only done the first four measures here to allow others to contribute. The idea, as discussed in the linked discussion, is to let others contribute a portion of the analysis so that more people will get experience doing it. All of the aspects of the piece will ultimately be discussed. This is just a starting place. I think a sonata might be a bit much for people just starting out with this stuff. There is enough form here to be talked about imo. Thanks for your thoughts though. :D
James

Aryeh

Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby Aryeh » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:14 am

jsguitar wrote:[

The T marks the phrase. I should've made that more clear.


I see the T but what phrase is it showing? It's on top of nowhere. Where does the phrase begin and end? How many phrases do we see in those first 4 measures? Certainly more than one. Better to put phrase markings.

I also disagree with the beaming on the accompaniment in the first measure. The melody line in the bass is clearly low D A F# G - yet the beaming has the entire A7 chord with stem going upward. The chord should be separated with the G and C having stem downward and the C# stem upward. The opening accompaniment figure is also a phrase and that should be marked as well. The intro starts with two phrases played in treble and bass, imagine a cello singing/bowing the opening bass line and a flute on top joining in. Since we as guitarists have to juggle melody and accompaniment at the same time we have to be aware of these things.

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Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby James Stephens » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:44 am

Aryeh wrote:
jsguitar wrote:[

The T marks the phrase. I should've made that more clear.


I see the T but what phrase is it showing? It's on top of nowhere. Where does the phrase begin and end? How many phrases do we see in those first 4 measures? Certainly more than one. Better to put phrase markings.

I also disagree with the beaming on the accompaniment in the first measure. The melody line in the bass is clearly low D A F# G - yet the beaming has the entire A7 chord with stem going upward. The chord should be separated with the G and C having stem downward and the C# stem upward. The opening accompaniment figure is also a phrase and that should be marked as well. The intro starts with two phrases played in treble and bass, imagine a cello singing/bowing the opening bass line and a flute on top joining in. Since we as guitarists have to juggle melody and accompaniment at the same time we have to be aware of these things.


Aryeh, I should've marked the phrases in the intro. I play them as such but didn't think to mark them when doing all the other stuff. I agree about the melody which is why I have it circled. I obviously didn't do the beaming so I can't change that. Since you seem interested, perhaps you could add an attachment of your analysis. It would be helpful to the discussion.

Thanks,

James
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Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby Non Tabius » Sun Oct 31, 2010 4:58 am

The challenge when it comes to chordal nomanclature is that there are so many alternatives for the same voicings
depending on indervidual perception of how the chords are so named.I see the last chord as an A9th because of the B and the G.The B is not a passing note but an extention of the Dominant 7 rendering the chord an A9.There are other alternatives as well according Mel Bay Chordal Harmony it may also be called a C#m7 or an implied Em6 .

blur

Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby blur » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:07 am

Non Tabius wrote:The challenge when it comes to chordal nomanclature is that there are so many alternatives for the same voicings
depending on indervidual perception of how the chords are so named.I see the last chord as an A9th because of the B and the G.The B is not a passing note but an extention of the Dominant 7 rendering the chord an A9.There are other alternatives as well according Mel Bay Chordal Harmony it may also be called a C#m7 or an implied Em6 .


Well it is most certainly not a C#m7 unless you flatten the 5th. (what some of us call the half diminished, but that's another story)

Looking at chords in a book, without the context of their harmonic function in the piece being examined is not going to work at all for the purposes of this analysis that we are doing.

An A9 e.g. will still have the basic function of being a dominant V in the key of D. So will A7b5b9...and so on. Let's get the basic function of the chord down first and then worry about the minutiae.

I have no doubt that you could look up a chord book and decide that the chord in the second half of bar 5 is some kind of Bbmaj7b5, but that would just be silly, given the context.

FWIW, I'm calling bars 5-10 in its basic form as:

D D+ | G D7 | G D7 | Bm Bm | Bm E7 | Asus A7 | ......and we are back to D

I haven't got a quick means of making an annotated score right now, so if someone wants to take this on board feel free. Also feel free to reject my call as well of course :).

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Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby Non Tabius » Sun Oct 31, 2010 6:22 am

Well it is most certainly not a C#m7 unless you flatten the 5th. (what some of us call the half diminished, but that's another story)


Sorry Blur I tried to send a previous post which was unsucessful meaning it to be a C#m7b5 but ,mistakingly ommiting the b5 on re-submission.

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Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby James Stephens » Tue Nov 02, 2010 3:10 am

Here's some more of the harmonic portion of the analysis which will hopefully give some insight into Barrios's choice of harmonic progression and form. I haven't marked as much minutia in this due to limited time (nor proofread it much) but I added the chords and their function through the first 16 bars or so for now and left out some suspensions, ect.

Blur, I only had a slight disagreement regarding m. 7, I believe you had it as Bm Bm. I was seeing it as G(in first inversion) to Bm, hearing the B in the bass implied in the second half of the measure. I also opted to just mark your Asus A as just A A, but with both the B and then D in the first half of the measure, I could see labeling as such and can do that if you feel it's more appropriate. I was hoping to just get the basis of the harmonic progression here, so I may have missed some things, but at least it's a start and I can edit it as needed.

For anyone that's interested in contributing (hint hint), I'm using the annotations in Mac's Preview program after downloading the pdf in the Barrios link at the top of the page. After the annotations are made, you can save it as a jpeg and reduce the size to 140kb or less so it can be attached. The annotations are pretty limited (no arched lines, ect.) but are at least easy to read. It's be great if someone would like to add any notes to this that I haven't done like phrases and the major cadences that occur in the attached.

Thanks,

James

(edit 2 : I just realized I left off some markings I had on the one that's on the first page. Oh well, :russa: )
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blur

Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby blur » Tue Nov 02, 2010 4:47 am

jsguitar wrote:Here's some more of the harmonic portion of the analysis which will hopefully give some insight into Barrios's choice of harmonic progression and form. I haven't marked as much minutia in this due to limited time (nor proofread it much) but I added the chords and their function through the first 16 bars or so for now and left out some suspensions, ect.

Blur, I only had a slight disagreement regarding m. 7, I believe you had it as Bm Bm. I was seeing it as G(in first inversion) to Bm, hearing the B in the bass implied in the second half of the measure. I also opted to just mark your Asus A as just A A, but with both the B and then D in the first half of the measure, I could see labeling as such and can do that if you feel it's more appropriate. I was hoping to just get the basis of the harmonic progression here, so I may have missed some things, but at least it's a start and I can edit it as needed.



No problem, James. I actually had measure 7 as G D7, but I can go with your G Bm which is probably more logical given that D7 in bar 7 to Bm in the following bar is a really weak harmonic movement anyway.

Thanks for marking up the score. I'm not using a Mac and don't have access at the moment to a PDF editor -- looking about for a freebie.

Anyway, as you say, time for someone else to try a few bars -- maybe someone who is new to this type of analysis would like to give it a try.

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Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby flameproof » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:19 am

You see, I'd have measures 7 to 9 as something like:

Emin Emin7 | Bmin / | E7 / *


Which brings me to the crux if the matter... suppose we manage to agree on the names of the chords here, then what? What will we have learned? What will it reveal about the structure of the piece?


Sometimes there just simply is a fly in the ointment, and it isn't always Flameproof who put it there.



* try strumming the chords while singing the melody, you'll see neither G Bmin etc., nor G D7 etc., work.
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blur

Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby blur » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:01 am

flameproof wrote:* try strumming the chords while singing the melody, you'll see neither G Bmin etc., nor G D7 etc., work.


I did. I've been playing for nearly 50 years in many styles. They do work. But please let's not go down that path again. It is counter-productive to the aims of the thread.

Actually Flameproof, now that I think of it, your interpretation of the chords does fit in with the aim of the thread which is to give people an idea of what they are playing i.e it is not just some random series of notes, but it does have a chordal structure and so on...I guess in some circumstances our ears hear quite different things.

Anyway, onward...

cashiPlayer

Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby cashiPlayer » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:41 am

flameproof wrote:Which brings me to the crux if the matter... suppose we manage to agree on the names of the chords here, then what? What will we have learned? What will it reveal about the structure of the piece?


Good point, but I suspect this isn't really for your benefit, given that you seem to have quite an advanced understanding of music theory. I'm getting quite a bit out of following these discussions and seeing how people work out what chord the notes fit in. Sorry I haven't contributed. I will hope to chip in with something useless :D when I get chance to sit down with the score.

banl

Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby banl » Tue Nov 02, 2010 11:24 am

I agree with Flamey, naming those chords isn't going to help me (and I think nobody) to play this piece better. I believe that in the first few replies to this thread Aryeh was saying the same thing. His comment about the placement of the stems gives more insight than the talk about chords.

Here are some things that my teacher taught me when we were working on this piece:
...
f# in measure 47 should be f.
...
Mod note: comments on interpretation moved to new thread here

cashiPlayer

Re: Analysis: Julia Florida, A. Barrios Mangore

Postby cashiPlayer » Tue Nov 02, 2010 12:13 pm

banl wrote:I agree with Flamey, naming those chords isn't going to help me (and I think nobody) to play this piece better.


Has anybody at any point said that that was the purpose of the exercise? :roll:

The point, for me at least, is to gain a greater understanding of the harmony and the structure of the composition. Perhaps, so that I realise what I'm playing when I play it, and more importantly in the hope that it may improve my own composition skills.


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