10 String Guitar

Discussion of all aspects of multi-string guitars, namely those with 7 or more strings.
Pabcandy
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10 String Guitar

Postby Pabcandy » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:27 pm

Hi, I thought I would take some soundings on this issue again.

Having put it off for as long time as I could now, I finally decided to take the plunge. I have a couple of fantastic guitars from Czech/Dutch builder Jaroslav Mach and I asked him if he could make me a 10 string as I know he previously built a 10 string for Saskia Spinder in the past (there are some Youtube videos of her playing it) and she loves it. It turns out he has build about 10 in his career so far. The build is under way and I should take delivery at the end of July. The price is also reasonable and Jaroslav is keeping me updated with regular photographs of the build.

I would like to raise a couple of points in relation to the 10 string guitar:

From those of you who already play 10 string, I wonder if you could give me some guidance on how you approach the instrument. As well as classical guitar I play metal string, banjo, charango and uke and I do not find that these interfere with my 6 string classical technique. They are all different instruments and can be approached as different instruments. However, I understand that playing 10 string can affect 6 strong technique. Is this because the same pieces are played (i.e. arranged for 10 strong) or is it really because the move between a wide neck and a narrow neck is problematic?

Do others get the sense that there is a burgeoning interest in 10 string classical guitars? I would be interested to know whether my desire to own and play one is shared by others? If so why and if not why not?

Phil
Jaroslav Mach, 2014 (small body)
Jaroslav Mach 2015
Ramirez Especial 1a, 1992
Dragan Muselin Flamenco
Lowden Pierre Bensusan Signature
Patrick James Eggle 12 string

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bear
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Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby bear » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:51 pm

I am new to playing 10 string. I've had mine a little over a month. I play the same music that I played on my 6 with no problem. I would compare it to someone who knows how to drive a car with an automatic transmission learning to drive a standard. You already know how to drive, there's just an extra pedal and a shift to get used too.
I think the way you choose to tune will make a difference, again similar to the shift on the floor, the column or paddles.
2013 Jeff Medlin '37 Hauser 640mm sp
2006 Michele Della Guistina Concert 10 string 650mm ce
2005 Jose Ramirez 4E 650mm ce
2005 Manuel Rodriguez Model C3F 650mm sp
2003 Manuel Rodriguez Model D 650mm ce

Pabcandy
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Location: Leeds, UK

Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby Pabcandy » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:03 pm

Thanks for the reply, what made you buy a 10 string and what difference do you see in playing one as compared to a 6 string?
Jaroslav Mach, 2014 (small body)
Jaroslav Mach 2015
Ramirez Especial 1a, 1992
Dragan Muselin Flamenco
Lowden Pierre Bensusan Signature
Patrick James Eggle 12 string

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bear
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Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby bear » Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:53 pm

Pabcandy wrote:Thanks for the reply, what made you buy a 10 string and what difference do you see in playing one as compared to a 6 string?

Buying a 10 string was just another mountain. It looked like it might be difficult so I had to try it. It's no more difficult than a 6 string as long as I don't look at my hands. There are some player that watch there hands almost continually, I don't. If I'm working frets in the double digits then I might glance.
Otherwise no.
The 10 string-because it is 10 strings- makes me think I have to look and that's when I flub a note. I don't play Renaissance, Baroque or Lute music, for the most part, the extra strings provide resonance and some fingering options. I'm tuned E-E on the 1st 6 then C,A#,G# and F#.
At the moment, this is my favorite guitar and if I could only keep one, it would be my Della Guistina . The sound is loud (double back), even and beautiful.
2013 Jeff Medlin '37 Hauser 640mm sp
2006 Michele Della Guistina Concert 10 string 650mm ce
2005 Jose Ramirez 4E 650mm ce
2005 Manuel Rodriguez Model C3F 650mm sp
2003 Manuel Rodriguez Model D 650mm ce

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Steve Ganz
Luthier
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Location: Blaine, WA, USA

Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby Steve Ganz » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:35 pm

Pabcandy,
You desire is shared, there are plenty of10 string players, but don't hold you breath for others to join the 10 string club. Why? A few thoughts:
Six strings are hard enough to master and 10 string appears to be even harder.
[*]Weight. 10 strings are not as comfortable to hold.
[*]Cost. Tuning machines, neck stock, cases all require extra cost.
[*]Builders. It can be difficult to find a luthier who wants to build a 10 string. The first commission I got for one was from an individual who had been around for a while. It is easier now to find one in the last 10 years, with at least one source specializing in multi-string instruments.
Steve

Pabcandy
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Location: Leeds, UK

Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby Pabcandy » Mon Jun 20, 2016 9:13 pm

Thanks, this is all very interesting. I thnk Yepes only played 10 string once he commissioned the Ramirez? Maybe I will do the same!
The lute developed over a few hundred years with additional strings into the baroque. This looks like what the guitar might do. We will have to see!
Jaroslav Mach, 2014 (small body)
Jaroslav Mach 2015
Ramirez Especial 1a, 1992
Dragan Muselin Flamenco
Lowden Pierre Bensusan Signature
Patrick James Eggle 12 string

es335
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Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby es335 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 12:01 pm

I've played a luthier 10 string guitar for well one year and my experiences are that this guitar was not much more difficult to play than my 6 string. It actually depends to some extend on the tuning of the lower 4 strings.

What I learn during this time was, that you can either use them for resonance enhancment of the regular six strings with occasional fretting of the seventh string, or you could use them to extend the bottom range with diatonic descendend basses.

The first, so called Yepes tuning, makes you use the 10 string guitar like a 6 string with the option of an additional bass string (7th) and otherwise 4 sympathetic strings.

Only the latter, so called baroque or romantic tuning, will require a more regular extension of your right hand's thumb movement and left hand's fretting.

Not sure if this is my sole experience, but I just recently looked out for a seven string which surprisingly turned out more confusing than playing a ten string guitar!?

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bergmann
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Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby bergmann » Tue Jun 21, 2016 2:32 pm

I get the impression that interest is increasing regarding the 10 stringed guitars and for the Russian 7- strings as well. As publisher for new music, I have got several composers and arrangers who will publish their works for those guitars in the near future. One suite has already been published for the 10-stringed guitar. You can listen to one of the movement from the suite at YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E_FZEAfL5k

Pabcandy
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Location: Leeds, UK

Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby Pabcandy » Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:08 pm

bergmann wrote:I get the impression that interest is increasing regarding the 10 stringed guitars and for the Russian 7- strings as well. As publisher for new music, I have got several composers and arrangers who will publish their works for those guitars in the near future. One suite has already been published for the 10-stringed guitar. You can listen to one of the movement from the suite at YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6E_FZEAfL5k


Hi, I was wondering about the availability of music. Can you keep me posted on publication of music. I am keen to use the additional strings as more than resonance so adapted works would be interesting.
Jaroslav Mach, 2014 (small body)
Jaroslav Mach 2015
Ramirez Especial 1a, 1992
Dragan Muselin Flamenco
Lowden Pierre Bensusan Signature
Patrick James Eggle 12 string

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David_Norton
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Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby David_Norton » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:27 pm

And here is an excellent example of what is likely THE biggest challenge in the 10-string world: tuning of the extra strings.

This new Suite looks and sounds quite good. However it is scored for ABCD tuning, with each bass string a tone or semitone lower then the preceding one. There's nothing at all "wrong" with adapting this tuning scheme, but it is not at all interchangeable with the Yepes F#-G#-A#-C pattern. The string gauges are totally different for the two set ups.

Neither tuning is perfect (though some people are fanatical that Yepes' way is the ONLY way; I consider them to be The Ten String Taliban), and there are some compromises made on both sides. With the Yepes approach, you get a fairly well balanced set of overtones which adds some depth and richness to the sound. These overtones have to be dampened out in certain passages lest the whole thing becomes very sonically messy. With the ABCD approach, you have a deeper bass registry to use, and you also end up with very unbalance overtones which need even more dampening attention than the Yepes set up does.

Beyond these two primary tunings, there are a wide number of other options, including in some cases having the "main six" strings mounted as strings 7-2 and adding a high A treble first string, with three low basses. So the whole 10-string thing quickly becomes a musical Tower of Babel. Many practitioners focus solely on one set up. Others own multiple 10-strings with multiple setups, which is certainly more efficient than changing out strings all the time but the initial hardware investment can be pricey.

For myself, I prefer using the Yepes tuning, if for no other reason that on MY 10-string (a 1975 Tamura) the overtones from the ABCD setup are simply too muddy and growly.
David Norton
Salt Lake City, UT

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isaacfe
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Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby isaacfe » Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:42 pm

It is my opinion that 10-13 strings guitars are not very appealing aesthetically. The fingerboard relation to the body is a bit peculiar. The guitar is fat. I prefer the look of a multistring guitar with floating bass strings above the fretboard.
2012 Ramon Blanco Cedar/Rosewood. 650 mm.
2012 Martin Backpacker
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2016 Edgar Perez Cedar/Rosewood. 650 mm.
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bergmann
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Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby bergmann » Tue Jun 21, 2016 9:13 pm

Hi, I was wondering about the availability of music. Can you keep me posted on publication of music. I am keen to use the additional strings as more than resonance so adapted works would be interesting.


The easiest way to be orientated is following the Bergmann Edition facebook page - all new publications will be announced there. But at the moment, there are two composers/arrangers for the 10-stringed guitar and one for the 7-stringed Russian guitar who are working on new publications.

Pabcandy
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Location: Leeds, UK

Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby Pabcandy » Wed Jun 22, 2016 7:57 pm

bergmann wrote:

The easiest way to be orientated is following the Bergmann Edition facebook page - all new publications will be announced there. But at the moment, there are two composers/arrangers for the 10-stringed guitar and one for the 7-stringed Russian guitar who are working on new publications.


Hi, I've saved the page to my Facebook.

Who are the two composers/arrangers, please?
Jaroslav Mach, 2014 (small body)
Jaroslav Mach 2015
Ramirez Especial 1a, 1992
Dragan Muselin Flamenco
Lowden Pierre Bensusan Signature
Patrick James Eggle 12 string

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bergmann
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Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby bergmann » Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:48 pm

Who are the two composers/arrangers, please?


The composers/arrangers are:
1. José Antonio Guerrero Ortiz
2. Stefan Wester (7-stinged)
3. Antti Sairanen

All three can be found on Facebook. And I'm sure they are willing to answer any question you have about their many stringed guitars.

Pabcandy
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Location: Leeds, UK

Re: 10 String Guitar

Postby Pabcandy » Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:16 pm

bergmann wrote:
Who are the two composers/arrangers, please?


The composers/arrangers are:
1. José Antonio Guerrero Ortiz
2. Stefan Wester (7-stinged)
3. Antti Sairanen

All three can be found on Facebook. And I'm sure they are willing to answer any question you have about their many stringed guitars.


Thank you very much, very kind of you.
Jaroslav Mach, 2014 (small body)
Jaroslav Mach 2015
Ramirez Especial 1a, 1992
Dragan Muselin Flamenco
Lowden Pierre Bensusan Signature
Patrick James Eggle 12 string


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