Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

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TheCardMaker
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Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by TheCardMaker » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:17 pm

Hi All
Question is in the title really, what specific speed should I set as my target for this piece?
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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by Kjetil Heggelund » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:23 pm

Since Allegro non troppo = fast, not too much it depends on what you think is fast. I've used different recordings for reference and then tried to play as fast as I could, which I guess is wrong...I think we all have a slight difference in what is fast. This study is great to develop speed in right hand and strength in left.
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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by Andrew Fryer » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:28 pm

I usually listen to some pros on Youtube and note their metronome markings.
My own approach to this would be not to worry about the end speed, on the grounds that the end would be so far away I couldn't see it!
However, if I were good enough, perhaps I'd stop acccelerating when it stopped sounding like music?
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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by randalljazz » Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:04 am

be more concerned about bringing out all the melody lines...
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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by TheCardMaker » Fri Jul 15, 2016 10:00 am

Thanks for replies, Kjetil are you quoting Frank Zappa in your footer? City of Tiny Lights just echoed in my mind, Bobby Brown - all from 'wasted' youthful evenings years ago - thanks for that little blast from the past there!

I'm just trying to get a feel for how much people use metronomes when practicing, or if people even set targets with pieces.
I understand how a target speed will differ from person to person, but whether people have them in mind when learning pieces i suppose is my wider question

Andrew - I feel the same way, I know that music is the goal and my playing this piece at 100 bmp is great fun regardless of whether I would like to play it at 144, say.

Maybe there are existing threads about use of metronome, I'll have a deeper look on here when I get a mo'

Thanks again!
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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by italian_job » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:48 am

Manuel Barrueco plays it at slow pace compared to the other pros, nonetheless very beautiful.

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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by Sharon Vizcaino » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:36 pm

I tend to play it at around 100, maybe a little less. I've never been great with speed in my right hand, mostly due to bad technique my guitar teacher works hard to correct. Maybe when I get better I'll play it faster, but I'm not actually sure I want to. Not a huge fan of speed for the sake of speed.
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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Fri Jul 15, 2016 9:07 pm

Fast, but not too fast :-)

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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by David Norton » Fri Jul 15, 2016 11:55 pm

Here is a quick survey of tempos on YouTube videos, drawn from LPs and CDs. I have a phone app where you beat time with the finger to arrive at a tempo marking, not perfect but a close idea. None of the players use a 100% "MIDI" style perfect pulse, so these are the general ranges I found, slowest to fastest. It's a pretty tight grouping nonetheless.

122 - 136 Laurindo Almeida
126 - 136 Norbert Kraft
132 - 140 Turibio Santos
136 - 146 Andres Segovia
140 - 156 Manuel Barrueco
140 - 156 Julian Bream
144 - 156 Narciso Yepes
146 - 158 Christopher Parkening
148 - 160 Pepe Romero
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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by Lovemyguitar » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:30 am

TheCardMaker wrote:...I'm just trying to get a feel for how much people use metronomes when practicing, or if people even set targets with pieces...
I think metronomes are essential, especially for a piece in which you want to increase your speed as you learn (metronomes are also useful to establish a steady pace throughout any piece, fast or slow). Increase the metronome in gradual increments if you want to play something faster -- if you go too fast too soon, it may be sloppy. As for setting a target, the specific target may vary on what sounds good to you, what you are able to play, etc., but if it helps to give you something to aim for, why not? You can always adjust it later.

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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by TheCardMaker » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:09 pm

Thanks for all replies
David Norton - superb answer, very thorough and most appreciated.

It helps me to know what the piece is played at, the average being somewhere around 140 given the data above so that will be my long term target

Lovemyguitar - I've only recently started using a metronome and intend to use it all the time now. For a self taught player like me (with a host of bad habits) I've found it works wonders in showing up consistent inefficiencies rather than general problems caused by lack of practice or strength (I often put the guitar down for a week or more at a time due to a busy life).
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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by RainyDayMan » Sat Jul 23, 2016 6:06 am

italian_job wrote:Manuel Barrueco plays it at slow pace compared to the other pros, nonetheless very beautiful.
Barrueco's renditions of all the preludes are beautiful and remarkably restrained when you consider his virtuosity. Bream's Villa Lobos record I guess from the 60's remains a favourite.

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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by Tony335 » Sat Jul 23, 2016 9:57 am

I use metronome for probably 90% of practice time:
- always for warm-up
- always for technical exercises
- learn new pieces at very slow metronome speed, then slowly increase to about half final speed, hold for a few days, then advance to close to final tempo at which point drop the metronome. (Sometimes use metronome to go 10% beyond target tempo, just to get security built in)

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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by Non Tabius » Sat Jul 23, 2016 3:08 pm

Thank goodness the tempos are not defined.It seems very much a "eye of the beholder" thing I believe.What I have experienced that a piece played moderately fast in strict tempo creates the illusion of very fast as opposed to a "rushed" or "raced" piece trying to play very fast but not musically spot on or relaxed.I have noticed this with players who for some or odd reason "gobble away" with the final variation Var.6 in Giuliani Op 107.In some cases there is no tempo at all.Just "musical aerobics".

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Re: Villa Lobos Study Number 1 - How fast is Allegro Non Troppo?

Post by wongsteven51 » Sat Jul 23, 2016 4:15 pm

I'd say 120 is a nice technical goal as well as in the range that I would consider allegro non troppo. However, I would try to get it as fast as I can while remaining musical while practicing.

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