Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods?

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edwardsguitar
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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by edwardsguitar » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:05 am

I recommend the Noad book. Fred put a lot of thought into it and I think it's very well done. If you had to choose one book to study from, it's the best in my opinion.

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by Joe de V » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:19 am

Hello 2handband: Thank you for your remarks. I consider the term "rushed" a relative term when comparing vs other instructional volumes.
In this one particular case comparing it to the Duncan 3 volumes. I do consider the Noad volume very good for a beginner with some background in guitar playing/music. I would like to used the term a first grade level for such students.
The inquiry put to us by the writer - spanishguitarmusic - leads me to believe that the Duncan volumes 1-2-3 will be a better (spoon-feeding?) type kindergarten level beginner volume but very explicit and easier to follow. One that will be more beneficial to this one particular new student. Particularly when there will be no assistance from a tutor/teacher to guide him/her along .
To me, It appears that you are thinking from a Teacher's point of view - which of course is a reasonable point. I am thinking from the new student point of view. My limited experience in conversation with a few new students of CG tells me that they gave up the instrument primarily because the material they were exposed to learn was ahead of their ability to apply the concept without any preliminary basic education.
It is a fact in every learning task that some of us can apply the concept quicker that others. Not all student can learn at the same speed.

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spanishguitarmusic
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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:36 am

leafhound wrote:all three methods are very good, however there's a people/purists that dont like the fingering in the Noad books.

Sagreras is a very traditional method held in high praise, it is graded but it can get a little monotonous/drill like, also with this method it is a good idea to add in your own supplements from right here at delcamp D01, 02, 03......
:merci: for your comment! I appreciated that you've explained that with the Sagreras method I should add in some supplements from Delcamp lesson levels. :)

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:41 am

robert e wrote:Whichever you choose, if you're self-teaching, I imagine the book+CD version of either would be preferable. For the adult self-learner who needs to understand the theory behind the technique, I would suggest, in addition to a method book, something like Charles Duncan's Art of Classical Guitar, which is not an instruction book but a very detailed discussion of the whys and hows of technique.

From my brief encounter with A Modern Approach, I'd say Duncan seems to go out of his way to be friendly, nonintimidating and uncomplicated, which I guess is what you'd want from a first book, but I hear the same about Noad's book as well. I presume you've already looked at this older thread about Noad's method? viewtopic.php?t=25357

Hubert Kappel's Bible of Classical Guitar Technique seems like a very thorough, detailed treatise aimed at serious adults, combining technique and theory, thus possibly suitable for adult self-teaching, but its tone is all business, which won't appeal to all.

Have you considered the interactive course offered on this site?
:merci: for your comment and the suggestion about getting Charles Duncan's Art of Classical Guitar technique book. Thanks for the link you've provided as well! Yes, I've always thought about taking the course offered right here on the site. So many options to start learning well! :)

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:43 am

astro64 wrote:If you want to get a good tone, I think you will not easily learn that on your own from method books. Look at good instructional videos, there is much information on Youtube. Or buy Tennant's "pumping nylon DVD", not just the book.
:merci: for advising to watch instructional videos on Youtube! That is a really great idea, as I am always looking at guitar videos on Youtube. Thanks also for suggesting that I get Tennant's pumping nylon book and DVD. :)

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:49 am

2handband wrote:Noad. I self-taught with it, and teach out of it. His method seems to get a lot of derision these days and I don't know why... it's extremely progressive, has tons of examples that are musical enough that you can play them without slitting your wrists, and simply the best sight reading study I have seen anywhere. It also has enough solo pieces in it to qualify as an anthology, and Noad was VERY good at picking music that is really enjoyable to play and hear yet level appropriate.

As a teacher I don't use it stand-alone; I supplement with other stuff. But if that other stuff wan't available it's good enough to serve as a stand-alone; in fact this is the only thing I had when I was learning. No other books, no other printed music, nothing. This book all by itself carried me to an intermediate level. For a single product tht will take you from beginner to intermediate nothing else, in my opinion, even comes close. And with the 4th edition going for less than $15 on Amazon it is also the best deal going... the music alone would be worth that.

Contrary to what someone above said, don't get the CD. If I'd had the CD I would never have learned to sight-read.
:merci: so much for your comment and suggestions! I am also leaning towards the Noad books. I was thinking of using the Noad books in conjunction with the lesson levels available on this site and the other sheet music. Yes, Noad's books are going for a pretty good price right now. I know the Noad books are available with the CD or not. I am not quite decided if I should purchase the book with or without the CD? I would like to hear what the piece is supposed to be sounding like if I get stuck or something. Anyway, thanks for your comment! :)

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:51 am

Joe de V wrote:I own and have used both author's volumes. Each one have some benefits over the other. The Noad volume is published under one single book. The Duncan Three volumes takes a better paced instructional approach. I believe that for a "never-before played guitar student" the Duncan volumes are a better choice. Why? It does not "rushes" thru a lesson to the next step. the "slow is fast" approach to teaching -
For players already familiar with the guitar and sight-reading I would say that the Noad volume will bring quicker results.
It is really a personal choice that should be based on the student background about guitar playing.
:merci: for your comment and for explaining the difference between Duncan's method and Noad's! :)

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Sat Feb 18, 2017 12:53 am

edwardsguitar wrote:I recommend the Noad book. Fred put a lot of thought into it and I think it's very well done. If you had to choose one book to study from, it's the best in my opinion.
:merci: for your comment and for advising that the Noad book is the best in your opinion! :)

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by Joe de V » Sat Feb 18, 2017 7:14 pm

Hello Again: You mentioned the comments made by edwardsguitar. There he did extend his opinion about "if you need to only choose One book to study from". That in essence bring this blog to the phrase "opening a can of worms" I do not believe that there is a single book currently in the market that can provide the one-to-one training that a qualified tutor/teacher can offer.I believe most of us will go along with that statement.

This blog stared with the difference options for a new student between volumes written by two different authors. I have to date learned whatever playing skills I have from a compilation of over a dozen instructional volumes by various authors. I knew how to sight read music before I started my self studies but even with that slight advantage as a new student, I found the need to take different sections from each volume to make my own educational track. Simplicity in understand the methods being taught is a key to progress.Each one of us students have to find the most beneficial to us - not anyone else - way to learn well a chosen skill.
Going back in my studies history - since 2003/ 2004 - I tend to go back as a reference source for review to one volume more than others from those I have collected. That volume came out in the market in 2001 - Relatively new in terms of CG instructional volumes -. Its author is David Braid and the Title is "Play Classical Guitar" Published by BACKBEAT BOOK OF SF.Cal. I consider it similar to attending a semester CG class at a local college.
You may find reviews of this one volume - along with others for the volumes mentioned here at the Amazon CG books web site.

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:07 am

Joe de V wrote:Hello Again: You mentioned the comments made by edwardsguitar. There he did extend his opinion about "if you need to only choose One book to study from". That in essence bring this blog to the phrase "opening a can of worms" I do not believe that there is a single book currently in the market that can provide the one-to-one training that a qualified tutor/teacher can offer.I believe most of us will go along with that statement.

This blog stared with the difference options for a new student between volumes written by two different authors. I have to date learned whatever playing skills I have from a compilation of over a dozen instructional volumes by various authors. I knew how to sight read music before I started my self studies but even with that slight advantage as a new student, I found the need to take different sections from each volume to make my own educational track. Simplicity in understand the methods being taught is a key to progress.Each one of us students have to find the most beneficial to us - not anyone else - way to learn well a chosen skill.
Going back in my studies history - since 2003/ 2004 - I tend to go back as a reference source for review to one volume more than others from those I have collected. That volume came out in the market in 2001 - Relatively new in terms of CG instructional volumes -. Its author is David Braid and the Title is "Play Classical Guitar" Published by BACKBEAT BOOK OF SF.Cal. I consider it similar to attending a semester CG class at a local college.
You may find reviews of this one volume - along with others for the volumes mentioned here at the Amazon CG books web site.
:merci: for your comment and for your suggestion on the CG source! :)

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by Larry McDonald » Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:39 pm

Hi,
So how do you gauge success of a method book?

There are several approaches to take when writing a method book, but I felt it that they distilled down to two. The first, like Noad, Duncan, and others, is to slowly pace the student through many similar studies/pieces so that they can slowly consolidate their mechanism and learn to read music. Seems logical. The other system is to use only a few studies/pieces per lesson, but demand high quality mechanics, and to simply decode the music. Rehearsing sight reading can be done at a later date, once the student's mechanics are in place. Seems logical, too.

I have become suspect of the the slow pace of the slower Noad style (btw, his fingerings are outdated, early 20th ct style, and need to be fixed, so don't use this without a teacher.) The slower pace is easier on the student, often at the neglect of mechanical excellence. Poor mechanics are easily rehearsed by concentrating on getting through more material. Turning the page is not a measure of success. Remember, "Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent." After 42 years of instruction, much at the university level, using Noad, Parkening, et alli, as texts for some of that time, I have found that the failures of this approach are greater than the successes. On this board, we only read anecdotes about how it was successful for the posters, never how it was a failure.

I realized I needed a different text since the failure rates were unacceptable to me (failure meant not having access to a set of reliable, automatic bio-mechanics.) I needed a text that reliably produced professional guitarists. I decided to increase the pace of the learning curve, -the second approach, and demand quality performances with phrasing/musicianship, even in the earliest lessons. I assigned 1/3 as many pieces so that the student could concentrate on segment practice to build their core mechanism. This is the way my beginning lessons were taught when I was a student, luckily executed by a master teacher/technician. He would not let me move to the next piece until I could perform the current assignment well 2x in a row. So a simple piece could take weeks. I am much looser than that in my instruction, often overlapping 2-3 pieces that are in various stages of segment and performance practice.

I have had much better success with the second approach, if you gauge success by technical and interpretive excellence. After the first year, my students had a collection of pieces that they were proud to play, and could demonstrate superior technique with pieces that were musically satisfying. Yes, it was a more concentrated approach to technique, but my students were not unwittingly rehearsing mistakes while turning a lot of pages. And yes, I need to supplement on occasion on a case by case basis for those students who need further reinforcement.

Could I use the second approach with Noad? Sure, I could and so could most of the teachers on this forum. It, like Carcassi, was the go to method in it's day. Remember, a teacher's philosophy will override any text, but I believe the first approach is a compromise with modern education standards. After a multi-year search, one of the texts I turned to was the excellently produced method by David Braid. I thought the text accelerated content at some of the appropriate moments, but it too had dated, old-school fingerings. I was still conflicted, but it was model upon which I could build.

Over the next 2 decades, I ended up editing and writing most of the material for my lessons using the second approach, which I eventually organized into a method for my students. Noad certainly does not lend itself to the second approach that a 21st century text will do, texts such as Stanley Yates' excellent "Classical Guitar Method", the delightful children's method "Guitar Academy" by Richard Corr, or the method by yours truly. When the core mechanism is in place, eg; the student has acquired a mechanism that is securely in Level 1 of the RCM, then I accelerate the pace of the literature study, choosing the pieces that are interesting to the student while introducing combinations of mechanics, which I call techniques. In other words, I use the first approach after the second approach.

So, if your in the camp that "More is Better" for beginners, use Noad or any other 19th or 20th century text. If you are in the "Less is More" camp for beginners, use a modern text.

All the best,
Lare
Dr. Lawrence A. McDonald, D.M.A., Art Kaplan Fellow
Author of The Conservatory Tutor for Guitar
2008 Michael Thames Cd/Br
Royal Conservatory Advanced Guitar Instructor
Royal Conservatory Advanced Theory Instructor

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:38 am

Larry McDonald wrote:Hi,
So how do you gauge success of a method book?

There are several approaches to take when writing a method book, but I felt it that they distilled down to two. The first, like Noad, Duncan, and others, is to slowly pace the student through many similar studies/pieces so that they can slowly consolidate their mechanism and learn to read music. Seems logical. The other system is to use only a few studies/pieces per lesson, but demand high quality mechanics, and to simply decode the music. Rehearsing sight reading can be done at a later date, once the student's mechanics are in place. Seems logical, too.

I have become suspect of the the slow pace of the slower Noad style (btw, his fingerings are outdated, early 20th ct style, and need to be fixed, so don't use this without a teacher.) The slower pace is easier on the student, often at the neglect of mechanical excellence. Poor mechanics are easily rehearsed by concentrating on getting through more material. Turning the page is not a measure of success. Remember, "Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent." After 42 years of instruction, much at the university level, using Noad, Parkening, et alli, as texts for some of that time, I have found that the failures of this approach are greater than the successes. On this board, we only read anecdotes about how it was successful for the posters, never how it was a failure.

I realized I needed a different text since the failure rates were unacceptable to me (failure meant not having access to a set of reliable, automatic bio-mechanics.) I needed a text that reliably produced professional guitarists. I decided to increase the pace of the learning curve, -the second approach, and demand quality performances with phrasing/musicianship, even in the earliest lessons. I assigned 1/3 as many pieces so that the student could concentrate on segment practice to build their core mechanism. This is the way my beginning lessons were taught when I was a student, luckily executed by a master teacher/technician. He would not let me move to the next piece until I could perform the current assignment well 2x in a row. So a simple piece could take weeks. I am much looser than that in my instruction, often overlapping 2-3 pieces that are in various stages of segment and performance practice.

I have had much better success with the second approach, if you gauge success by technical and interpretive excellence. After the first year, my students had a collection of pieces that they were proud to play, and could demonstrate superior technique with pieces that were musically satisfying. Yes, it was a more concentrated approach to technique, but my students were not unwittingly rehearsing mistakes while turning a lot of pages. And yes, I need to supplement on occasion on a case by case basis for those students who need further reinforcement.

Could I use the second approach with Noad? Sure, I could and so could most of the teachers on this forum. It, like Carcassi, was the go to method in it's day. Remember, a teacher's philosophy will override any text, but I believe the first approach is a compromise with modern education standards. After a multi-year search, one of the texts I turned to was the excellently produced method by David Braid. I thought the text accelerated content at some of the appropriate moments, but it too had dated, old-school fingerings. I was still conflicted, but it was model upon which I could build.

Over the next 2 decades, I ended up editing and writing most of the material for my lessons using the second approach, which I eventually organized into a method for my students. Noad certainly does not lend itself to the second approach that a 21st century text will do, texts such as Stanley Yates' excellent "Classical Guitar Method", the delightful children's method "Guitar Academy" by Richard Corr, or the method by yours truly. When the core mechanism is in place, eg; the student has acquired a mechanism that is securely in Level 1 of the RCM, then I accelerate the pace of the literature study, choosing the pieces that are interesting to the student while introducing combinations of mechanics, which I call techniques. In other words, I use the first approach after the second approach.

So, if your in the camp that "More is Better" for beginners, use Noad or any other 19th or 20th century text. If you are in the "Less is More" camp for beginners, use a modern text.

All the best,
Lare
:merci: so much for your comment and advice! Some really great information here to consider and to look at when deciding on a method to choose. :)

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by 2handband » Mon Feb 20, 2017 1:14 pm

After the comment from lare I feel compelled to add that his method is really good; I have both volumes. But I don't agree that more material == poorer mechanics; in fact it affords the opportunity to solidify your mechanics. And I think the volume of material is essential for building sight reading chops. I agree with some of his criticisms of noad: the pictures are terrible and the fingerings are not always optimal. I'll add to that and say the man makes some odd editorial choices. But as a whole package... I think it's still king. I like the approach of having a zillion examples for each concept... it forces you to really nail stuff down.

The best thing about lare's method are the superb photos and the excellent advice on HOW to practice... it's the best I've seen in that regard.

Edited to add:

If someone were to write an ideal method for beginners it would be a combination of Noad and MacDonald with some exercises from Aguago's Escuela de Guitarra thrown in and a proper introduction to harmony. It would also probably be impossible to sell.

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:28 am

2handband wrote:After the comment from lare I feel compelled to add that his method is really good; I have both volumes. But I don't agree that more material == poorer mechanics; in fact it affords the opportunity to solidify your mechanics. And I think the volume of material is essential for building sight reading chops. I agree with some of his criticisms of noad: the pictures are terrible and the fingerings are not always optimal. I'll add to that and say the man makes some odd editorial choices. But as a whole package... I think it's still king. I like the approach of having a zillion examples for each concept... it forces you to really nail stuff down.

The best thing about lare's method are the superb photos and the excellent advice on HOW to practice... it's the best I've seen in that regard.

Edited to add:

If someone were to write an ideal method for beginners it would be a combination of Noad and MacDonald with some exercises from Aguago's Escuela de Guitarra thrown in and a proper introduction to harmony. It would also probably be impossible to sell.
:merci: for your comment and your explanation of an ideal method for beginners! :)

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Re: Method Books – Charles Duncan or Frederick Noad which would you choose if you had to learn from one of these methods

Post by ashworth » Tue Feb 21, 2017 3:47 am

I've been using both the Sagreras and the Noad (and also the Carcassi) by turns. If I had to recommend one, I'd say the Sagreras. A couple of things about the Noad method, excellent though it is—I do find that it progresses pretty fast in terms of difficulty, which has led me to some frustration at times. Also the repertoire is heavily weighted toward Renaissance music, (at least as far as I've gotten, which is the latter part of book 1). That is great if that's your liking, but it isn't my particular interest.

The Sagreras contains some really nice pieces that are written specifically for the guitar and what I find to be a more suitable rate of progress with the difficulty level. But again, the Noad is certainly an excellent method in many respects; there is much more helpful text and explanation than in the Sagreras, for one thing.
- Donnie

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