Asturias

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eddy
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Asturias

Post by eddy » Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:05 am

Can anyone help with some tips for making the C7th chord (fourth finger on the 12th fret E) I have never been able to make it cleanly when playing the piece.
Sonny

Julian Ward
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Re: Asturias

Post by Julian Ward » Sat Feb 18, 2017 11:28 am

Hold the guitar neck even higher .....or buy a shorter scale length instrument! Lol.

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David_Norton
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Re: Asturias

Post by David_Norton » Sat Feb 18, 2017 2:59 pm

The reality is that a large number of players can't manage that chord, and they make modifications. For myself, I just keep a high C note under the barre and don't even try for the high E. (I figure if the WORST part of my performance people might talk about is dropping down the treble line there, then I've done a bang-up fine job of it!) Others place a barre at 10th fret and play the chord like this:

12
11
12
10
10
0

Segovia drops back to first position and plays it:
0
1
0
2
1
0

This is despite how his published version reads.
David Norton
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Julian Ward
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Re: Asturias

Post by Julian Ward » Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:23 pm

I just picked up the guitar to play that section and genuinely cannot see a problem so would be interested to know what part of it you cannot manage? I have not seen others simplify it before?

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David_Norton
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Re: Asturias

Post by David_Norton » Sat Feb 18, 2017 10:46 pm

In my own case, my left pinky is about .25mm too short to cleanly hit that high E, particularly in the flying jump sort of fashion that is needed here. I can reach the upper portion of the 12th fret, the inside part of my finger pad touching the bridgeside bit of the 11th fretwire, but I can't make it to the middle or lower part of the fret area, which is needed to get a clean sound versus a buzz/rattle. I've played this piece for some 40 years, and at this stage the hand elasticity is going the other direction to simply "learn to stretch it more". 640 or 650 scale doesn't really make much difference. 660mm DOES make a difference: complete miss! :roll:
David Norton
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Julian Ward
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Location: UK, Ringwood

Re: Asturias

Post by Julian Ward » Sun Feb 19, 2017 12:25 am

Thats quite interesting. When I played around earlier I could also fret the F instead - so one fret up. I wonder if you are not getting correct separation between pinky and ring finger? When I teach students awkward stretches I often do exactly that - I get them to practise the shape or stretch as if it were worse! It actually can work. Here is something to try: practise it a couple of frets lower in pitch (this will in effect make the stretch worse). Maybe post a picture of your hand whilst playing this chord? Maybe there is another reason..?

eddy
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Re: Asturias

Post by eddy » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:38 pm

Thanks to all of you for the advice.

Mr Kite

Re: Asturias

Post by Mr Kite » Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:58 pm

Julian Ward wrote:Thats quite interesting. When I played around earlier I could also fret the F instead - so one fret up. I wonder if you are not getting correct separation between pinky and ring finger? When I teach students awkward stretches I often do exactly that - I get them to practise the shape or stretch as if it were worse! It actually can work. Here is something to try: practise it a couple of frets lower in pitch (this will in effect make the stretch worse). Maybe post a picture of your hand whilst playing this chord? Maybe there is another reason..?
Julian, if you hold your left hand so that you are looking straight at your fingernails (fingers curled as if playing) then spread your fingers as far apart as they will go, what angle is your pinky at with respect to your index finger? Are you able to rotate the pinky so that it points more inward or more outward, or is the amount of rotation fixed by the spread of the hand?

PS this is a C7 barred at the 8th fret with the low E open and the little finger on the high E, right?

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lagartija
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Re: Asturias

Post by lagartija » Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:55 pm

Mr Kite wrote: .....then spread your fingers as far apart as they will go, what angle is your pinky at with respect to your index finger? Are you able to rotate the pinky so that it points more inward or more outward, or is the amount of rotation fixed by the spread of the hand?
Rotation? Do you mean the angle formed by index finger and pinky if you drew a line down each into the palm?

For me, that angle is greater than 90 degrees. I can play that chord on a 650 scale and my hands are small. It is only the flexibility that allows me to do it and that only happened after two or so years of playing. I had to keep reaching for it. My right hand is not as flexible; that pinky/index angle when the fingers are curled as if to play is only 90. When I place both hands palm to palm and spread the fingers, there is a significant difference between the two hands which is even greater when the fingers are flexed in playing position. Since I started at age 54, it isn't as if I had age on my side. :lol:
I just really wanted to play that piece...
When the sun shines, bask.
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Classical Guitar forever!

Julian Ward
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Re: Asturias

Post by Julian Ward » Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:50 pm

Mr Kite I tried the thing you said and my pinky points inwards towards my thumb - I am not able to rotate it by any significant amount yet to me reaching that chord is easy - I am 40 now and first played that chord in that piece at 15 and the chord was not difficult then either. As I said I can actually fret the pinky on the 13th fret instead whilst still holding C7.

I am currently teaching a lad electric guitar in school and the shape of his hand totally prevents him playing a simple 3 fingered power chord! Totally strange - in his case, his pinky is set much lower down on his hand, the knuckle joint is lower and that also gives him a short pinky (in effect)... Maybe a similar issue?

Mr Kite

Re: Asturias

Post by Mr Kite » Mon Feb 20, 2017 11:13 am

Julian Ward wrote:Mr Kite I tried the thing you said and my pinky points inwards towards my thumb - I am not able to rotate it by any significant amount yet to me reaching that chord is easy.
Hmm, in that case, do you have your pinky straight when playing this chord?

With the pinky bent I can only reach the D#, and am not even very close to the fret. If I straighten the pinky I can reach the E, but then I lose the Bb (muted by 3). If I reach for the F, both 2 and 3 come off their frets leaving me with just the bar.
Julian Ward wrote:I am currently teaching a lad electric guitar in school and the shape of his hand totally prevents him playing a simple 3 fingered power chord! Totally strange - in his case, his pinky is set much lower down on his hand, the knuckle joint is lower and that also gives him a short pinky (in effect)... Maybe a similar issue?
That is curious... my pinky is short (the end is level with the tip joint of my ring finger) but I can make that shape with 1 and 3 on the top 2 strings and still reach the bottom string with my pinky, at least on an electric.

There definitely seems to be a lot of variation in people's hand shapes. If you think of 1 and 2 as a pair and 3 and 4 as another pair, the two pairs tend to face each other to some extent when the hand is curled, but this is much more pronounced in some people than others. I think it is a question of the knuckles being set in rotation (on an axis looking down the hand and fingers with the fingers outstretched) with respect to each other. The ability to rotate the fingers at the knuckle would make about a gazillion new chords possible for me, but it doesn't seem to be something you can develop.
lagartija wrote:Rotation? Do you mean the angle formed by index finger and pinky if you drew a line down each into the palm?

For me, that angle is greater than 90 degrees.
Yes, I think that's the same thing - with the fingers curled but the hand otherwise relaxed, the fingers all seem to point to the bottom left corner of the hand, so if you projected the lines of the tips of the pinky and index fingers, they would meet around there. For me - still with the hand relaxed - the angle between them is maybe 40 degrees. If you then spread the fingers from the knuckles, the pinky points more to the base of the thumb, which in my case gives an angle of more like 90 degrees, and therefore less reach. If I could make this angle zero, by rotating the pinky at the knuckle, the chord would be easy. That's why I was wondering whether Julian's pinky was less rotated with respect to his index finger.

Just a hunch but it may just be that you are able to spread your LH fingers further apart than your RH fingers, and that the splay is the same on both hands for the same spread.

I know what you mean about the time thing :lol:

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