Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

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Rick Beauregard
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:16 pm

Alan and Eberhard, do you have a list of pieces that you try to keep fresh, what I have called my Gold Set List? If so what are they. I listed mine a few posts back. I try to play them at least every week but that's not enough to keep them in the fingers.
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

skipintro
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by skipintro » Tue Sep 26, 2017 4:16 pm

I bought Bert Weedon's "Play in a A Day" about 50 years ago. It's been a long day!
Then Carulli et al. I stopped after a year or two - halfway through 'Lagrima' I seem to recall.
Started again 3 years ago and now trying hard age 72.
Making progress!
Main difference now is the availability of masses of material (such as this site and youtube) and also tab, which I didn't know about back then, and I'm older and wiser (I think). I find learning easier now than it was then,
I've concentrated hard on sight reading and memorising - lots of info here https://memorisingmusic.com/2014/07/29/ ... -practice/
So I can now play Lagrima more or less but I've got interested in a lot more material from other sources off the straight and narrow.
Currently memorising 'Tango 3' by Ferrer and milongas by Fleury, Pujol and others.
My sight reading has improved I think by having a go at anything and everything. Working hard on a limited repertoire can be self defeating and some things can be left for another time. It's very pleasing to come back to something I couldn't play a year ago and now finding it possible.
But the main thing for me has been endlessly returning to beginnings; Carulli's lessons and yes 'Play in a Day' all over again. I need to spend a lot of time playing simple stuff well instead of difficult badly.

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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:39 pm

Welcome back skipintro, and thanks for the link. I'll add one more technique that I read on The Bulletproof Musician https://bulletproofmusician.com/

It turns out a lot of memorization technique helps retention. But doesn't do as much for recovery. Interleaved practice is shown to improve both. Practice a short phrase (one link) slowly and repetitively for 5 minutes (set your timer) then move on to another piece or phrase for 5 minutes. Then a third phrase for 5. Repeat this until you reach your 45 min or hour session and take a break.

I also recommend you look at the online lessons here on Delcamp. I had two years of lessons 35 years ago and quit. So I started at Delcamp level 1 and read through everything I could sight read, then year 2. At year 3 i hit a road block so I started the lessons there. I'm on D06 now. There's a great (free) and graded repertoire to match your level and push you forward, good discipline with monthly lessons, and great feedback from fellow enthusiasts from around the world.
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

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Eberhard Mueller
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Eberhard Mueller » Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:22 pm

Rick Beauregard wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:16 pm
Alan and Eberhard, do you have a list of pieces that you try to keep fresh, what I have called my Gold Set List? If so what are they. I listed mine a few posts back. I try to play them at least every week but that's not enough to keep them in the fingers.
I do have a gold set list which I call my repertoire book. In printed form it is composed of about 60 pieces. The electronic version has way more which can be made readily available to add to the repertoire book. That's a long list which, when I have time later, I can post. Truth be told, this is more than I can maintain. I would say that the first 30 are gilded and the remainder become silver and eventually tarnish sets in! I can't say that everything gets played weekly.

I'm almost 73, of course retired, and should have time. Yet, there are other things happening all the week. When I do have the day clear, I find myself procrastinating until later in the evening. I think arthritis pain is responsible for a lot of the procrastination. Once I get started, I find it hard to stop. Lately I've trained myself to stop in time before I cripple myself for the next day. I try to be realistic about where the practicing I get is going to take me. Likely, for the duration of my life, I will delightfully hover at around the intermediate level. There is so much quality music in the mid-range level of ability. Now and then, one always has opportunity to include a tougher piece.
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Eberhard Mueller
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Eberhard Mueller » Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:04 am

Eberhard Mueller wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 8:22 pm
Rick Beauregard wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:16 pm
Alan and Eberhard, do you have a list of pieces that you try to keep fresh, what I have called my Gold Set List? If so what are they. I listed mine a few posts back. I try to play them at least every week but that's not enough to keep them in the fingers.
I do have a gold set list which I call my repertoire book. In printed form it is composed of about 60 pieces. The electronic version has way more which can be made readily available to add to the repertoire book. That's a long list which, when I have time later, I can post. Truth be told, this is more than I can maintain. I would say that the first 30 are gilded and the remainder become silver and eventually tarnish sets in! I can't say that everything gets played weekly.
...snip
Rick, as promised, this is my current list, more gold set than silver: :wink:

Sor – Coste Method: #9 – #11 - #13
Sor: Op. 6 #1, #2, #8
Op. 31 #21
Op. 35 #3, #13, #14, #17, #22
Aguado: Lesson #15, #19, #24, #26
Giuliani: Op. 51 #1,
Op. 107 Haendel Variations, Theme, #1, #2, #3, #6 (Chiesa)
C.J. Dorn arr: The Last Rose of Summer
Tarrega: Estudio in E minor
Lagrima
Adelita
Anonymous: Ballet, transc. Gerrits
Romance, arr. Noad
Ballet from Terpsichore, arr. Noad
Mertz: Song arrangements from Kukuk #1, #2, #8, #9, #52, #53, #76, #102, #103, #119, #134, #135
Nocturne Op.4 #2
Haendel: Fughette from Aylesford Pieces (Segovia)
Bach: BWV 996 Bouree (Bream)
BWV 1012 Gavotte #1 & 2 (Lorimer)
Neil Douglas 2001 (German Spruce / German Maple)
Neil Douglas 1992 (Engelmann Spruce / Brazilian Rosewood)
La Patrie Motif
Cordoba Mini M

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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:55 pm

Wow and impressive list! This is great and gives me some things to look at that I haven't tried yet. Thanks EM.
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

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Eberhard Mueller
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Eberhard Mueller » Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:10 pm

Rick Beauregard wrote:
Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:55 pm
Wow and impressive list! This is great and gives me some things to look at that I haven't tried yet. Thanks EM.
The list is too long, even 'though the pieces are mostly short, Rick! It breaks my heart to take off pieces in which I've invested affection and time. However, there is always a new piece that I hear and want to add. I really have come to some senses and select shorter easier works. I believe I mentioned earlier in this thread, that first time around with the classical guitar, I made the strategic error of taking on ever more difficult pieces which made the earlier learned pieces drop out as I did not have time for them anymore. In the end you have nothing to show except the latest!

Yet, there is constant temptation! I hear Uros Baric play his arrangement of "Nearer, My God, To Thee" and I just have to try it. It looks to be challenging and would take some time! So far, I've not located the sheet music. Thankfully! :?
Neil Douglas 2001 (German Spruce / German Maple)
Neil Douglas 1992 (Engelmann Spruce / Brazilian Rosewood)
La Patrie Motif
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by ashepps » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:16 am

Rick Beauregard wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:16 pm
Alan and Eberhard, do you have a list of pieces that you try to keep fresh, what I have called my Gold Set List? If so what are they. I listed mine a few posts back. I try to play them at least every week but that's not enough to keep them in the fingers.
Rick, I have not forgot your request, I had started a list (not very many), but never got it together, I saw the Notification again and thought I would at least respond. I will get them to you shortly. Probably a lot of members won't like this, but I have been trying to put two nice arrangements by Soren Madsen, Hallelujah and Stairway to Heaven, to memory and I am finding that quite a chore! It is making me play them better though!

Also, I am doing the same thing with Mason William's original recording of Classical Gas, without the orchestra and with full bars, not the lazy way! Relearning it, I did find a few of my errors that are now hard to fix when the muscle memory kicks in.

There I said it...three pop pieces!

Cheers,

Alan
Alan Sheppard
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Thu Nov 09, 2017 12:06 am

Here’s an update on my progress. Another 100 hour milestone yesterday. 6900 to go.

I learned a couple new pieces over the last few months. Working on a nice little tango by Alain Reiher in his collection of miniatures, number XV. Also Un dia de Noviembre just in time for fall. It was easier than I thought it would be. Andrew York’s Lullaby. Wilde Mountain Thyme to celebrate the end of summer in the Cascades. Just started in York’s Avenue of the Giants.

I started year D06 of Delcamp lessons on the Spanish forum. I must say I am struggling. Not so much with the material but the participants. 17 students, 4 languages, a lot of dialog and poor google translations, and too rigid on the “rules”. (I posted a video of a work in progress a couple days before the recommended week and was chastised and officially warned.) I think maybe the other non-Spanish speakers may be struggling too. A request to post D06+ lessons on the English forum was rejected. I pulled back for a few weeks, but felt a little rudderless without the challenge and discipline, so I guess I’ll press onward and keep my participation to the minimum while learning the works. There’s some gems in there. But I have no time to translate and read the pages narrative. I’d rather practice.

My trigger finger issue is not hampering my right hand much. I’ve tried many cures to no avail so far. Dr. recommended Voltaren gel. Jury’s still out. FYI it’s available without a prescription and cheaper from Canada. I know, maybe I should just rest the hand. I guess no tremolo for a while. I don’t like tremolo anyway!
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:30 am

Last night I heard a different exposition of the 10,000 hour concept that I think I like better. Rather than achieving “mastery” after deliberate practice for 10,000 hours, or not less than 10 years of deliberate practice, we just start to get good. This works better for me cause mastery is a bridge too far for me at my age. After all, a typical music student has studied from the age of 8 - 18 before she goes to conservatory. Surely she has not mastered the instrument yet, but is just beginning her journey.
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

skipintro
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by skipintro » Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:33 am

10000 hours is about 5 years of full time work i.e. about the time it takes you to get an apprenticeship or 1st degree, a typical professional qualification and be ready to start a career. Music is craft trade just like many others.
Self taught is only different in that you are having to find out for yourself how to learn.

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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rasputin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:47 pm

I can just about grasp the idea that after 10,000 hours of effective practice you are about as good as you are ever going to be, but the idea that any fixed number of hours corresponds to any given level of competence makes no sense to me at all, whether it's "mastery" or "just getting good". The idea that the same number would apply to different skills strikes me as especially daft. If it takes 10,000 hours to become a master sculptor or orator or violinist, how can it also take 10,000 hours to become a master shoeshiner?

Maybe it's one of those false ideas that is still valuable because believing it motivates you. Otherwise it just seems to be about selling books in airport bookstores.

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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:31 pm

skipintro wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:33 am
10000 hours is about 5 years of full time work i.e. about the time it takes you to get an apprenticeship or 1st degree, a typical professional qualification and be ready to start a career. Music is craft trade just like many others.
Self taught is only different in that you are having to find out for yourself how to learn.
The original Journal article by Ericksson etal cites knowledge and informative feedback, as in from a teacher, as prerequisites of “deliberate practice”. Although being self taught is not specifically excluded, and many achieve mastery through this route, I think the author feel it is needed. Besides, even self taught artists use books, videos or other information in nearly every case. There’s really no such thing as “self taught”.
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:51 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:47 pm
...but the idea that any fixed number of hours corresponds to any given level of competence makes no sense to me at all, whether it's "mastery" or "just getting good". The idea that the same number would apply to different skills strikes me as especially daft. If it takes 10,000 hours to become a master sculptor or orator or violinist, how can it also take 10,000 hours to become a master shoeshiner?

Maybe it's one of those false ideas that is still valuable because believing it motivates you. Otherwise it just seems to be about selling books in airport bookstores.
The negative critics of this idea who imply 10,000 hours exactly is somehow what was meant by the researchers in this study are daft. Read the research study. The evidence is strong, it seems to apply to a wide range of skills (if not shoe shining, I don’t know, they didn’t research shoe shiners), and the number 10,000 is qualified numerous times. It’s not even the point of their study. The point is that deliberate practice for a very long time, and not inherent talent ALONE, is required to gain mastery. This seems obvious to me. The very thing that makes this research interesting is that the NOMINAL 10,000 hours seems to be relevant to such a wide range of skills. And for those just starting out who have been convinced (or convinced themselves) they have no talent, yes, stick with it. Hard work can overcome many things.

I realize these ideas are hard to accept if you’ve been raised to think you have some gift. There are of course exceptions.
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rasputin » Mon Nov 20, 2017 5:40 pm

Rick Beauregard wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:51 pm
The point is that deliberate practice for a very long time, and not inherent talent ALONE, is required to gain mastery. This seems obvious to me.
Me too.
The very thing that makes this research interesting is that the NOMINAL 10,000 hours seems to be relevant to such a wide range of skills. And for those just starting out who have been convinced (or convinced themselves) they have no talent, yes, stick with it. Hard work can overcome many things.
Yes it can, but for me a much more important consideration is that we don't have to be brilliant at something to justify spending our spare time doing it. It's our time to spend as we like, and why wouldn't we spend it playing guitar when even inexpert playing can be such a pleasure? I think what I am uncomfortable with is the idea that this needs to be justified by saying that it is mastery in the making. That is the idea that this 10,000 hour theory is insidiously reinforcing. It is inviting us to say 'OK I'm not that good now, but you wait and see - I will be one day', when we should be saying 'I do it for pleasure, it doesn't matter how good I am or how good I am going to get - it's not a competition'.

People were saying 'genius is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration' decades ago, so that magic 10,000 hours is really the only thing that makes the newer stuff at all interesting. I don't think calling the figure 'nominal' makes much difference here. If it means we should read it as 10,000 hours, more or less, that's still a magic number and still makes the whole thing dodgy, and if it means that we should read it as 'a long time', we already knew that.

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