Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

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Rick Beauregard
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:12 pm

I too use a tracking app on iPhone. It's called Music Journal. It has a built in metronome and tracks your practice towards your target tempo. You can organize your pieces or projects by type in folders. I use Delcamp lessons, gold set list, things I'm working on long term, Etudes, etc.

Are you still following the lessons Andrei? What level are you at now?
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

Andrei Puhach
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Andrei Puhach » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:59 am

Rick Beauregard wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:12 pm
I too use a tracking app on iPhone. It's called Music Journal. It has a built in metronome and tracks your practice towards your target tempo. You can organize your pieces or projects by type in folders. I use Delcamp lessons, gold set list, things I'm working on long term, Etudes, etc.

Are you still following the lessons Andrei? What level are you at now?
Got you, Rick, I tried this app on Android, but somehow chose Gleeo.
I'm in D04. Considered doing both D04 and D05 then changed my mind in favor or quality (not quantity). I also work on other pieces outside of Delcamp, Lagrima is in my list :) Romanza used to be there, now I'm re-learning it to use apoyando for melody and a-i-m pattern (rather than a-m-i).
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:17 pm

Andrei Puhach wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:59 am
Rick Beauregard wrote:
Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:12 pm
I too use a tracking app on iPhone. It's called Music Journal. It has a built in metronome and tracks your practice towards your target tempo. You can organize your pieces or projects by type in folders. I use Delcamp lessons, gold set list, things I'm working on long term, Etudes, etc.

Are you still following the lessons Andrei? What level are you at now?
Got you, Rick, I tried this app on Android, but somehow chose Gleeo.
I'm in D04. Considered doing both D04 and D05 then changed my mind in favor or quality (not quantity). I also work on other pieces outside of Delcamp, Lagrima is in my list :) Romanza used to be there, now I'm re-learning it to use apoyando for melody and a-i-m pattern (rather than a-m-i).
Ok, I'll pop in to see how you're doing with the lessons. Lagrima and Romanza as you know are coming up in the lessons. Re learning a-I-m Romanza and Guardame Las Vacas with F# tuning were a pain, and now I'm trying to re re learn both the old way again. :x
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:10 pm

I reached a major milestone this week as I passed the 30% mark to my goal of 10,000 hours. I feel a tremendous sense of accomplishment.

For those who have commented on this post that just focusing on the 10,000 hour goal is not enough, of course you are right. It's just a metric. You can't noodle for 10000 and achieve mastery. You need "deliberate practice". And Mastery is relative. It doesn't mean I expect to be the next Jason Vieaux. It just means I hope to achieve a level of mastery possible for me. And there obviously is no endpoint. Once a goal is achieved you set another goal. And the most obvious comment, if it's not fun or worthwhile, or musical, why bother? I get it. But for others like me who have both a right brain and a left brain, this seems to work.

My daily practice was deliberate, most of the time:

* Motivation- the music motivates me. And when I get frustrated I just stick with the process and put in the hours.

* Effort- I'm putting in the effort, the time, but it feels like fun. I joke with my wife that this is my job, but it couldn't be less of a job.

* Pre existing knowledge- I jump started my 3000 hours because I already knew music from piano lessons for 6 years. Your results may vary. I've had 2 years of great instruction and benefit from so much knowledge on this forum and other sources.

* Informative feedback- my colleagues on Delcamp.com have been giving me helpful feedback. I also have some new friends from the NW Classical Guitar Society to provide feedback. I think this may be the year I restart some lessons. I've also done more performing to family and friends to rave reviews. :D

* Awareness of results- the video submittals on Delcamp lessons have been very valuable to review results. I still struggle with achieving "perfection" in these recordings. I'm also doing recorded periodic "practice performances" to assess progress using a set list of about 12 pieces, my "Gold Set List". These are challenging and an eye opener.

* Repetition- I have to practice my Gold Set List weekly to keep it in the fingers. I have exercises I repeat on Monday-Wednesday-Friday: scales, arps, stretching, slurs, sight reading. I have a growing list of etudes I go back to repeatedly. When learning a new piece I use the 5x process: repeat a phrase 5 times until I can play it relatively flawlessly. I use interleaved practice- short periods in a piece or a phrase then move to another phrase, then return to the first, etc. - to enhance memory retention and retrieval.

If you want to learn more about the 10,000 hour concept go to the origin, not to the book Outliers, which is a popular summary but with flaws. See the original paper here:
http://projects.ict.usc.edu/itw/gel/Eri ... cePR93.pdf

Here's a video of my latest progress if you are interested. I appreciate any feedback.
https://youtu.be/VaipMln1xtI

:merci: :merci:
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

Andrei Puhach
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Andrei Puhach » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:19 pm

Rick Beauregard wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:10 pm
I reached a major milestone this week as I passed the 30% mark to my goal of 10,000 hours. I feel a tremendous sense of accomplishment.
...

Here's a video of my latest progress if you are interested. I appreciate any feedback.
https://youtu.be/VaipMln1xtI

:merci: :merci:
Double congratulations, Rick! That's a real milestone, let it inspire you even more!

I really like your rendition of Wild Mountain Thyme. I watched some of your other videos and I think this is one of the cleanest, most polished and most musical performances. The only little thing is the audio quality / mic levels setup: gain level is too high or something. But that's the easiest part to fix it. The hardest part is to be able to play like that. So, congrats!

Also, thank you for describing your practice plan and routine in detail.
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:33 pm

Ya and some pixelated pictures. Not a professional job. But that gain is annoying. I thought I had it high but not too high. I've turned it down a notch for the next effort. Thanks for watching.
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

errrtoffie
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by errrtoffie » Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:37 pm

For me instead of thinking about how many hours I practice Im just thinking about how many pieces i can play in one day, improvement will come naturally if you love what you are doing.

Andrei Puhach
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Andrei Puhach » Fri Sep 22, 2017 12:43 am

errrtoffie wrote:
Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:37 pm
For me instead of thinking about how many hours I practice Im just thinking about how many pieces i can play in one day, improvement will come naturally if you love what you are doing.
Interesting point, well, for me it is more important to play well, without mistakes, with good tone, dynamics etc, so that it is pleasure to listen. Not sure if playing many pieces in a crappy way is better than playing a few pieces really well...
Also, I think that improvement does not come that naturally when learning more and more pieces without polishing and without discipline. Or at least very slowly. I think targeted and focused effort should be taken to attack fragments which do not come out well. Sometimes ~10% of a piece requires ~80% of efforts (that's the case for me at least).
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Rick Beauregard
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:05 pm

Interesting book excerpt about the debate: do I just work hard to make it, or is there no hope for me?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=12843867

Thanks Chris
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

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Eberhard Mueller
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Eberhard Mueller » Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:06 pm

Rick Beauregard wrote:
Fri Sep 22, 2017 9:05 pm
Interesting book excerpt about the debate: do I just work hard to make it, or is there no hope for me?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=12843867
I think there is hope for everyone - just not the hope that one imagines. Hence, a certain flexibility with regard to aspirations is healthy.

The second time around with the classical guitar I have had different things against me, or any of the aspirations I might have entertained. I believe, qualitatively and quantitatively, I had more things going in my favour when I was first time around in my early 40's, by far! However, I could not meet my hopeful expectations in any case.

I would never call myself a musician. I know better. Even my grade 4 music teacher knew better by instructing me to sit next to someone who could carry a tune. But, hope springs eternal and I have never given up my love of music! I do have a voracious appetite for classical music by both listening to others and playing for myself. There is something special about that music, especially on the guitar!!! :casque:

While there is musical enjoyment on the one hand, for nearly all of us, the serious stuff, musical talent, is only rationed out to a few. I, like Glen Kurtz, (above link,) feel Salieri's plight. Though' I have listened to Salieri's music, both operatic and instrumental, and can attest to the fact that I would not even be able to carry his candlestick, let alone that of the almost divine Mozart.

Logging 10,000 hours of enjoyment is not at all bad! If you got talent, fine tutelage, then the craft is honed to a razor sharp edge during that time. If without talent, one's enjoyment should however not be diminished. Simple logic 'though, that the older you get the more illusive a quantitative goal might become. The body gives out and the sands of time run out - if lucky, maybe at 9,999, or so. :desole:
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Neil Douglas 1992 (Engelmann Spruce / Brazilian Rosewood)
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:10 pm

Here's another interesting take on how practice affects the brain and performance. Malcolm Gmadwell, as it turns out, put the emphasis on the wrong syllable in his popularization of Anders Erickson's paper. It is more about deliberate practice, as defined in the paper, for a very long time than it is about 10,000 hours. But there is a lot of evidence that no less than 10,000 hours or 10 years seems to be a point of departure in many fields.

https://www.facebook.com/TEDEducation/v ... 518599280/
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

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Eberhard Mueller
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Eberhard Mueller » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:11 pm

Rick Beauregard wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 5:10 pm
Here's another interesting take on how practice affects the brain and performance. Malcolm Gmadwell, as it turns out, put the emphasis on the wrong syllable in his popularization of Anders Erickson's paper. It is more about deliberate practice, as defined in the paper, for a very long time than it is about 10,000 hours. But there is a lot of evidence that no less than 10,000 hours or 10 years seems to be a point of departure in many fields.

https://www.facebook.com/TEDEducation/v ... 518599280/
No doubt the quality of practice is sine qua non. We will all benefit, regardless of the base line level of talent we possess. I have a book on my shelf (goes back to 1978) by Alice Artzt titled "The Art of Practising." So, in summary, this is what she says, referring to exercises and new pieces:

"Do them SLOWLY"
"Do them ABSOLUTELY PRECISELY, both in terms of precision of finger placement and in terms of rhythmic regularity and exactness."
"Do them with as little wasted motion as possible."
"Do them always with a GOAL in mind, knowing always exactly what particular problem you are trying to correct."
"Do them PERFECTLY. Anything that would not do as is for an LP recording is no good, and means you are going too fast."

The key understanding is that practice of any imperfection, is far more time consuming to unlearn than it is to learn in the right way. Doing it correctly in the first place economizes and optimizes the available practice time. Nevertheless, we are all prone to impatience and pushing onward too fast, notwithstanding that we have so much time, all of 10,000 hours!
:guitare:

Perhaps it is as if, in the impetuosity of youth, we have all the time in the world but behave as if we would die in the morning. For the old timer, there is a slight twist to the dilemma. We may well (and realistically) suppose to die in the morning but can we still behave as if we have all the time in the world?
Neil Douglas 2001 (German Spruce / German Maple)
Neil Douglas 1992 (Engelmann Spruce / Brazilian Rosewood)
La Patrie Motif
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Rick Beauregard » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:32 pm

Eberhard Mueller wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:11 pm

"Do them PERFECTLY. Anything that would not do as is for an LP recording is no good, and means you are going too fast."
This is good advice Eberhard. I've never been a perfectionist. My challenge is I get bored with a piece before I've truly mastered it. I have more fun when learning a new piece than when perfecting one I have learned. But it frustrates me when I can't play it through without obvious error. I'll look for Alice's book. I have "With My Own Two Hands" by Seymour Bernstein. About piano not guitar but also very good.
All this time I thought I was making music; it was making me.
2015 Steve Ganz "Solidarity"
1980 Dauphin D30
1962 Fender pre-CBS P-Bass
National Triolian Uke ca.1930
Almost as many fly rods as guitars
_/) _/)
_/)

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Eberhard Mueller
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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by Eberhard Mueller » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:08 pm

Rick Beauregard wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:32 pm
Eberhard Mueller wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:11 pm

"Do them PERFECTLY. Anything that would not do as is for an LP recording is no good, and means you are going too fast."
This is good advice Eberhard. I've never been a perfectionist. My challenge is I get bored with a piece before I've truly mastered it. I have more fun when learning a new piece than when perfecting one I have learned. But it frustrates me when I can't play it through without obvious error. I'll look for Alice's book. I have "With My Own Two Hands" by Seymour Bernstein. About piano not guitar but also very good.
Rick, we share this "amateur" problem. I have a differing interpretation of it, 'though. I find that my repertoire expands to the point where maintenance of said repertoire becomes difficult. I'm forever "practicing" to bring pieces back into shape. Presently, I'm trying to compensate a bit by satisfying my desire for novelty, new pieces, by substituting easier ones. The theory is that these will be much easier to maintain, yet still satisfying.
Neil Douglas 2001 (German Spruce / German Maple)
Neil Douglas 1992 (Engelmann Spruce / Brazilian Rosewood)
La Patrie Motif
Cordoba Mini M

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Re: Can an Old Guy make it to 10,000 Hours? A rhetorical question

Post by ashepps » Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:00 pm

Very true Eberhard, I have resurrected a number of ones from 35 or more years ago and I have not all re-memorized yet, but those that I do were more difficult and if I leave them go for a month or so the endings need to be read and learned somewhat again, although it come much faster.

I have a couple of newer pieces that I like, but I have been trying to master them for a year. Finally I decided to memorize them in hopes that that would make the task easier, but I am finding it so difficult to memorize now. Once I have parts memorized it does help the overall play.

Cheers - Alan
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