Help with a bar of rhythm

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Adrian Allan
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Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by Adrian Allan » Wed May 31, 2017 11:23 pm

Hello

I seem to have a mental block over the counting for this bar of Koshkin's Three Station on one road - ie. I am trying to work out what notes lie on which beat from beats 1 to 6, including the "and" of the beat, or the semiquaver subdivisions as well

Can somebody help me with this?
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franks59
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by franks59 » Wed May 31, 2017 11:45 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 11:23 pm
Hello

I seem to have a mental block over the counting for this bar of Koshkin's Three Station on one road - ie. I am trying to work out what notes lie on which beat from beats 1 to 6, including the "and" of the beat, or the semiquaver subdivisions as well

Can somebody help me with this? music quote.jpg
music quote.jpg
Frank
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by Adrian Allan » Wed May 31, 2017 11:53 pm

Thanks, Frank

One more question, please. The second bass note, the low f and e should be on beat 3, taking into account the bass note and rest before it.

However, the bass notes are directly below the c and a flat, which should be after beat 3 due to the semiquaver rest. Can you explain?
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setecordas
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by setecordas » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:09 am

The 16th rest is being used for both voices. You will typically only see rest values stacked to indicate rests for different voices if the rests are different, like on beat 4. If the rests are the same, you will likely just see one rest.
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franks59
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by franks59 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:41 am

Adrian Allan wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 11:53 pm
Thanks, Frank

One more question, please. The second bass note, the low f and e should be on beat 3, taking into account the bass note and rest before it.

However, the bass notes are directly below the c and a flat, which should be after beat 3 due to the semiquaver rest. Can you explain?
Setecordas has the correct answer. Nothing is played on the downbeat of 3. The F/E is played on the 2nd semiquaver of 3.

Frank
Last edited by franks59 on Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by Adrian Allan » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:42 am

Ok, thanks.

I thought the rule was, once you have started to notate for two voices, the rest of the bar needs to be for two voices.

That is the beat that was confusing me. I think it could be clearer. I am interested to know if other people think it coukd be clearer.
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:17 am

Adrian Allan wrote:I thought the rule was
There is no universal rule - only guidelines given by various academic or publishing bodies. Typically an editor with a strong leaning towards the academic will follow your assumed rule of complete voices whilst another - Matanya Ophée for instance - will defer to a less cluttered score.
Adrian Allan wrote: I am interested to know if other people think it coukd be clearer.
Professional music engravers ostensibly take the view that notation should be clear and unambiguous - facilitating an accurate reading first time through by the majority. This measure fails that test.

For greater clarity the 16th rests should be aligned - both they and the 8th rest should be set higher on the staff, clearly indicating that the upper voice is punctuated by silences - a 16th rest should be added for the lower voice at pulse three and an 8th at pulse five.

I would also question the use of the quarter and dotted quarter across pulses five and six - tied notes define the duple beat grouping more clearly. This is obviously the result of aiming for a visually less cluttered score.

Ironically there is clutter added elsewhere - is it really necessary to indicate position one (but not four)? A 12th fret harmonic needs a zero?

Odd thing is I remember this piece from (maybe) around the 1980s (Koshkin was flavour of the moment, "Prince's Toys" and "Passacaglia" were recently published). I played it but don't recall any notation issues. Is this a new edition?

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by Adrian Allan » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:50 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:17 am
Adrian Allan wrote:I thought the rule was
There is no universal rule - only guidelines given by various academic or publishing bodies. Typically an editor with a strong leaning towards the academic will follow your assumed rule of complete voices whilst another - Matanya Ophée for instance - will defer to a less cluttered score.
Adrian Allan wrote: I am interested to know if other people think it coukd be clearer.
Professional music engravers ostensibly take the view that notation should be clear and unambiguous - facilitating an accurate reading first time through by the majority. This measure fails that test.

For greater clarity the 16th rests should be aligned - both they and the 8th rest should be set higher on the staff, clearly indicating that the upper voice is punctuated by silences - a 16th rest should be added for the lower voice at pulse three and an 8th at pulse five.

I would also question the use of the quarter and dotted quarter across pulses five and six - tied notes define the duple beat grouping more clearly. This is obviously the result of aiming for a visually less cluttered score.

Ironically there is clutter added elsewhere - is it really necessary to indicate position one (but not four)? A 12th fret harmonic needs a zero?

Odd thing is I remember this piece from (maybe) around the 1980s (Koshkin was flavour of the moment, "Prince's Toys" and "Passacaglia" were recently published). I played it but don't recall any notation issues. Is this a new edition?
Thanks - for a minute, I thought it was just me

This a new edition by Margaux from 2009. There is an even more horrible bar I will copy and upload in a minute, where noteheads collide making it impossible to read.
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:01 am

One tip in a badly drawn bar like this is to count backwards from the end, esp if the last beats are relatively straightforward. Helps sort out the easy bits and can clarify the less easy.
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by Adrian Allan » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:17 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:01 am
One tip in a badly drawn bar like this is to count backwards from the end, esp if the last beats are relatively straightforward. Helps sort out the easy bits and can clarify the less easy.
I try this as well

Once connected issue is this - in highly syncopated pieces (like this), do you sometimes count every quaver beat, ie. twelve quaver beats in this case? I tend to do this, and make the semiquavers into "ands"?
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:40 am

Adrian Allan wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:17 am
Once connected issue is this - in highly syncopated pieces (like this), do you sometimes count every quaver beat, ie. twelve quaver beats in this case? I tend to do this, and make the semiquavers into "ands"?
Yes. When in doubt, subdivide!
Last edited by Stephen Kenyon on Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Help with a bar of rhythm

Post by Adrian Allan » Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:40 am

I put the bar on the music engravers' page on Facebook - they really know their stuff

This is how they reacted
koshkin reactions.png
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