Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

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Adrian Allan
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Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Adrian Allan » Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:40 am

On the final repeat of the opening scale passage, the scale is marked with staccato dots.

Why do you think this is - every other instance of it has a slur or a phrase mark. Should I play it closer to the bridge to make it more staccato?

In addition, on the last scale, the note grouping for the semiquavers/sixteenths is different - as there are three sixteenth upbeats. However, when I listen on Youtube, most people still put the accents on the same sixteenths as the opening run.

Surely, there should be a slight difference in accents if the notes are grouped differently. Maybe an aspect of the study is to bring this out, instead of it being just another identical run.

What do people think?
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:23 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:Surely, there should be a slight difference ... instead of it being just another identical run.
Everything that you have noticed is correct and important.
Adrian Allan wrote:However, when I listen on Youtube, most people still put the accents on the same sixteenths as the opening run.
Many players follow a "chinese whispers" method, simply replicating what they have heard before with little (if any) thought or understanding. You display more astute observational skills - take advantage of that.

The original scale was marked staccatissimo by the way - VL clearly wanted the sounds to be properly detached - consider the effect of that musical idea together with the instruction to play the final E "on the bridge".

1st scale - legato, mezzo forte, très animé
Target E# should be quiet enough that a well defined crescendo may be executed immediately following.

Last scale - staccatissimo, forte, vif
Intense drive to the accented dominant.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Adrian Allan » Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:30 pm

Thanks, Mark - I am going to listen to the Youtube renditions now to see if anybody does follow the differences in the score, which we both agree seem to be important, but are normally overlooked. Not even sure if Bream does it differently last time!
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Larry McDonald » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:42 am

Yep, you have the accents/slurs figured out correctly, too. I've never heard anyone get this right other than Ricardo Cobo.
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:29 pm

Thanks for the responses so far.

Am I correct in saying that that I do not need to do the repeat section?

btw, I have sorted out the issue about the As and A sharps, which varied between the original manuscript and the Eschig edition.

Also, listening on Youtube, I had no idea that Segovia recorded this etude; he plays it with a technical facility that rivals today's virtuosi. Also, he does something completely different on the hammer on pull off bit on the last page that is not in the score.
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Adrian Allan » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:19 pm

I have done a video of this, but it had to be removed for being too contemporary and copyright, but you can find it on Youtube with my name and the name of the piece.
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guitarrista
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by guitarrista » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:48 pm

Have you seen Stanley Yates's summary based on the original manuscript uncovered in the 1990s? He has a number of remarks and changes regarding Etude 7. See pages 12-13 of his paper (direct link to pdf here).

I don't know if any of it is relevant to your particular question, but thought you might find it useful given your careful attention to the composition.
Last edited by guitarrista on Mon Jul 24, 2017 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Adrian Allan » Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:51 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 5:48 pm
Have you seen Stanley Yates's summary based on he original manuscript uncovered in the 1990s? He has a number of remarks and changes regarding Etude 7. See pages 12-13 of his paper (direct link to pdf here).

I don't know if any of it is relevant to your particular question, but thought you might find it useful given your careful attention to the composition.
I have read a long time ago, and lost the link - thanks for giving me it again.

I am in a process of gradually improving my own playing of this piece. Looking back on my Youtube video, I can see where it fails today, but it is a piece that we can keep under our belts during a lifetime of study, and keep tweaking it.
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Rasputin
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Rasputin » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm

What did you decide about the note grouping in that final run? I had a brief look on YT when I first saw the thread and it seemed that people were shifting the third note of what is written as a pickup over the bar line, then dealing with the extra note by making the last group a group of 5.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Adrian Allan » Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:55 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:41 pm
What did you decide about the note grouping in that final run? I had a brief look on YT when I first saw the thread and it seemed that people were shifting the third note of what is written as a pickup over the bar line, then dealing with the extra note by making the last group a group of 5.
I tried to have three upbeats (a little rubato/paused) and then a run of notes starting with the accent on the F sharp instead of the G, as in the previous iterations of the scale. I haven't yet mastered that, though - but you can see my attempt on Youtube by searching my name.
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Andre » Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:19 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:55 pm
I tried to have three upbeats (a little rubato/paused) and then a run of notes starting with the accent on the F sharp instead of the G, as in the previous iterations of the scale.
I take a similar approach. But what made me do that is the 1/16th note rest that kicks off the run. So, I hear the scale passage really starting on the F# of the next measure and ending on the B half-note.
I don't know if that's correct, or not, but it seems to work well, and, apart from the staccato markings, makes the phrasing of the ending scale passage sound noticeably different, accent-wise, from the (almost) identical scale begins the piece.

(I did locate your version on YouTube. Do you tune down or use strings that have very low tension?)
Best regards,
Andre

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Adrian Allan » Mon Jul 31, 2017 5:40 pm

Andre wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 4:19 pm
Adrian Allan wrote:
Mon Jul 24, 2017 7:55 pm
I tried to have three upbeats (a little rubato/paused) and then a run of notes starting with the accent on the F sharp instead of the G, as in the previous iterations of the scale.
I take a similar approach. But what made me do that is the 1/16th note rest that kicks off the run. So, I hear the scale passage really starting on the F# of the next measure and ending on the B half-note.
I don't know if that's correct, or not, but it seems to work well, and, apart from the staccato markings, makes the phrasing of the ending scale passage sound noticeably different, accent-wise, from the (almost) identical scale begins the piece.

(I did locate your version on YouTube. Do you tune down or use strings that have very low tension?)
Thanks for watching. I think that the wide movement of the strings is something to do with a trick or fault of the video recording device - I imagine it is a sort of strobe effect, similar to what happens or used to happen when you filmed a TV set. They are actually high tension Oasis carbon strings.
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Luis_Br
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Luis_Br » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:34 am

I think Zanon in his recording plays first scales very legato with correct articulation and the ending scale is forte and a bit staccato. His ending scale does not sound really staccatissimo, but it is quite difficult to achieve it at that speed. Most players don't sound staccatissimo at the ending scale nor legato in the first ones (due to speed difficulties, a lot sound a bit staccato when playing that fast).

I don't know Cobo's recording.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by Adrian Allan » Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:43 am

Luis_Br wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:34 am
I think Zanon in his recording plays first scales very legato with correct articulation and the ending scale is forte and a bit staccato. His ending scale does not sound really staccatissimo, but it is quite difficult to achieve it at that speed. Most players don't sound staccatissimo at the ending scale nor legato in the first ones (due to speed difficulties, a lot sound a bit staccato when playing that fast).

I don't know Cobo's recording.
I will wonder if it is possible to play the first scale as real slurs? I think that Bream does attempt this.

If there was a separate musical symbol for slurs and phrases, we wouldn't have this problem of interpretation!
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ben etow
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Re: Some questions about Villa Lobos etude 7

Post by ben etow » Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:21 pm

As for the last phrase/scale, I changed the LH fingering in order to play the upbeat more naturally (and without rubato) - there should be a difference IMO.
And there are not only those staccato marks but also "vif" in the manuscript at least, so I guess we have to play this more quickly.

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