There is really no original source. It's a tune that's been around for ages.pogmoor wrote:The original source of this guitar piece is the lute tablature version found in the William Ballet lute book. This has F natural.
Me wrong...WRONG . Who doth dare to say I am mistaken, that I am have erred, blundered,misconstrued, indeed missed the boat of correctiveness ?? correctiousness ?? of being right.pogmoor wrote:And Hans, you can be forgiven for the fact that Val's beautiful playing distracted you from what he actually states - that the theme is the aforementioned anonymous version from the William Ballet lute book and the two variations (from which you can't tell whether it is F natural or F sharp) are by Francis Cutting.
This is in accord with English renaissance lute style in which contrasting "major" and "minor" intervals in the same key were often utilised for their effect (quotes used there because the concepts of "major" and "minor" had not by that time been developed).circle1 wrote:I personally like the F natural because it makes the F# in the B section sound all the more fresh when it arrives.
I didn't know RVW played the banjo - as for the banjonium, what is thatKevinCollins wrote: VAUGHAN WILLIAMS, Ralph (1872-1958)
Fantasia on Greensleeves
On the original instrument, the Banjonium......
I don't think this is true in the way you have stated it (see my comment above).KevinCollins wrote:......Remember that the lute of that time had movable frets, that tuning was not tempered, but based on ratios or whatever they came up with in that part of the world. When you changed keys, you adjusted the fret positions. Instruments did not sound as we are used to hearing them today, which includes the emotional content, I'm afraid. You know, the "mood" (or... "mode"?). If you were to be truthfully authentic, you would start with movable frets and then conjecture as to the actual sound. Did that F note sound sharp-"er" in the intonation of the lute of the time? ----
Does he? I haven't seen this book , so I don't know. Noad usually followed original lute versions fairly faithfully - as in the case of his version of Greensleeves in the Renaissance Guitar Book which is a transcription of the two Cutting variations.Non Tabius wrote:For me with all respect if Frederick Noad Bk 1 has it as a F# then thats good enough for me.
I agree, pogmoor. I don't think it had so much to do with movable frets. The tuning systems of that time were very well developed and quite fixed. What was in flux during the Renaissance period was the modal system as it slowly began to morph into what we today call the tonal system of major and minor, which finally gained precedence by the High Baroque. In the earlier medieval modal system accidentals were rarely, if ever, written into the music. It was part of a musician's training to learn when it was appropriate to raise a note during performance. It was up to the discretion of the player -- or, in a choral setting, the director -- to make that decision, frequently on the fly. Even today we still carry on certain vestiges of that system in things like the melodic minor scale where the 6th and 7th degrees are raised when ascending and lowered when descending.pogmoor wrote:This is in accord with English renaissance lute style in which contrasting "major" and "minor" intervals in the same key were often utilised for their effect (quotes used there because the concepts of "major" and "minor" had not by that time been developed).
One must bear in mind that Noad introduces this peace in its most basic form for the beginner .At that stage I would assume that the respected author would not wish to bogg the student down with ambiquaties between F and F#.Does he? I haven't seen this book , so I don't know. Noad usually followed original lute versions fairly faithfully - as in the case of his version of Greensleeves in the Renaissance Guitar Book which is a transcription of the two Cutting variations.
I have found several arrangements of this now and I have seen only one other so far that uses F# in the verse. Just to confound this even further though, I did find an arrangement that uses F natural in both the verse and the chorus (the B section, presumably). That really does sound rather awful.circle1 wrote:I agree that it can go either way and I've seen nice arrangements with either one. I personally like the F natural because it makes the F# in the B section sound all the more fresh when it arrives.
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