Greensleeves: again

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Bkellyjazz

Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Bkellyjazz » Mon Jul 26, 2010 3:55 am

I am still wondering what are the two or three best arrangements for Greensleves. I love that tune myself audiences love to here it performed so I am looking for a good arrangement. Any suggestions would be appreciated.




Brian

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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:14 am

Bkellyjazz wrote:I am still wondering what are the two or three best arrangements for Greensleves. I love that tune mysklef audiences love to here it performed so I am looking for a good arrangement. Any sugestions would beappreciated.

Brian
I have seen several arrangements and the most interesting is on page 65 of The Christopher Parkening Guitar Method Vol.1. I don't know if you would be able to find just that piece on its own. However, if you are a relative beginner like me, you might find the book useful. It covers a good range of technical stuff, and there is an appendix of lovely pieces to play.

Cheers,
Malcolm
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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:11 am

Bkellyjazz wrote:wondering what are the two or three best arrangements
You might try to find the composer John Duarte's version, published by Novello in a small set entitled "Three English Folksongs", the other two being "Blackbirds & Thrushes" and "Bushes & Briars".

His arrangement (which in no way claims to be "authentic", whatever that means) uses a dropped D and takes advantage of the full range of the instrument, cleverly weaving the melody through instances of high and low registers. Stylistically, it's reminiscent of Vaughan Williams (if VW had cared tuppence for the guitar that is).

Though just my subjective view, it's far superior compositionally to anything arranged by the likes of Parkening et al who are, after all, primarily players rather than composers.

The other two arrangements are also worth a look.

N.B. Don't mistakenly acquire Duarte's "Sixteen English Folksongs", an entirely different publication of simple, two-part arrangements aimed at first year students (unless, of course, you are a first year student).

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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jul 26, 2010 7:56 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Bkellyjazz wrote: His arrangement (which in no way claims to be "authentic", whatever that means) uses a dropped D and takes advantage of the full range of the instrument, cleverly weaving the melody through instances of high and low registers. Stylistically, it's reminiscent of Vaughan Williams (if VW had cared tuppence for the guitar that is).

Mark
Hi Mark - pardon my ignorance, but when you refer to a "dropped D" do you mean the E string tuned down a tone. That's a technique I used to great effect during all those years when I was playing a 4 string electric bass, and I would love to have a crack at that arrangement, however clumsy it might be at my stage of CG playing. :oops: I was interested to read your comment about VW (my favourite British composer (well along with Elgar, Britten, and Holst). Surely, he either heard Segovia play, or at least, was aware of his virtuosity. I am interested to read any comments you might have on that - did he despise the guitar, or was he just indifferent?

Cheers,
Malcolm
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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Silverbach » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:22 pm

I have developed a mild obsession with learning to play this piece and the version I'm using is from the John Mills "The Student Repertoire". He states that it is the "bare bones" version "from William Ballet's Lute book". It's in 6/8 time and #F (on the 4th string) occurs in the 7th and 15th bar.

Another version is from Russ Shipton's "The Complete Guitar Player Classical Book," published in 1995. This version, in 3/8 time, has 13 chords that use the arpeggiando technique but no #F. I found this book in a charity shop and it still had the MIDI disk that came with it. My son copied it onto a CD for me and this version, with arpeggiando, does give it a "mediaeval" sound.

Hope I have explained myself clearly.

S

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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Ramon Amira » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:29 pm

Best version I have ever heard was by Jorge Morel - sixth string to D. He plays it with great feeling. I have sheet music for this from a long time ago, so it might be available somewhere.
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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by pogmoor » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:35 pm

Silverbach wrote:I have developed a mild obsession with learning to play this piece and the version I'm using is from the John Mills "The Student Repertoire". He states that it is the "bare bones" version "from William Ballet's Lute book". It's in 6/8 time and #F (on the 4th string) occurs in the 7th and 15th bar.
The F under discussion at the beginning of this thread is the penultimate note in the first complete bar (if it's barred in 6/8 rather than 3/4) which is an F on the first string. As I've said before the tablature version in the William Ballet lute book has the equivalent of an F natural here. The fourth string F# is sharp in all versions - I think :)
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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Ramon Amira » Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:36 pm

I just found a previous post of my own about this :

Nothing to do with "rolling," but if you want to hear a fantastic rendition of Greensleeves, try to find it by Jorge Morel. It's hands down the best rendition I have ever heard. I have it on LP, and I actually even have his sheet music for that version - sixth string to D. He plays with tremendous feeling. The arrangement itself by Morel is also the best I have heard. There is one rendition of this arrangement on YouTube, unfortunately not played by Morel. The player is not very good, but at least you can hear the arrangement. Incidentally, it turned out that this player is using no end of rolled chords, so it's germane after all. But in any case to really appreciate it you have to hear Morel play it - he is just plain terrific.
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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:05 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:did he despise the guitar, or was he just indifferent?
Malcolm - I don't know that VW had anything against the guitar - just indifference I suppose. Perhaps he was aware of Segovia, but even back then I think that the guitar was still something of a niche market in the UK. Over the years I've overheard many musicians discussing guitarists (whom we hold in high regard) with nothing more than amused disdain, even downright hilarity on occasion - Segovia amongst them.
Malcolm wrote:do you mean the E string tuned down a tone?
Yes.
Prominent Critic wrote:I have it on LP
Can you give the name of that LP please Prom Crit?

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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Jul 26, 2010 2:51 pm

Actually, never mind Prominent Critic - I found it, "Guitar Moods" and it turns out I have the arrangement in the book "The Magnificent Guitar ...".

After playing it through I still prefer the Duarte setting - perhaps it's an "English" thing.

Cheers
Mark

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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Ramon Amira » Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:56 am

Mark -
Naturally we all have our preferences. But some day you should try to hear Morel PLAY that arrangement. It's quite beautiful.

Not to digress, and it has nothing to do with his arrangement, but John Duarte was one of the coldest, nastiest people I have ever met.
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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:36 am

Prominent Critic wrote:some day you should try to hear Morel PLAY that arrangement
Certainly, and I have now found a compilation CD of his work from the 1960s-80s which includes it. His arrangements of "Take Five" and "Norwegian Wood", both of which I transcribed from a worn out old cassette tape as a youth, also appear on this CD. It will be interesting to see how close I got back then.
Prominent Critic wrote:one of the coldest, nastiest people
Strange how one's experiences of people are so subjective; I always found JD a very generous and kind fellow. I recently had a similar exchange regarding someone else (she shall remain nameless). I find her warm, helpful and generous to a fault whilst the rest of the world bandy around terms like "harpy" and "harridan". Very strange and, as you say, nothing at all to do with the matter at hand.

Mark

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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by KevinCollins » Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:42 pm

pogmoor wrote:
circle1 wrote:I personally like the F natural because it makes the F# in the B section sound all the more fresh when it arrives.
This is in accord with English renaissance lute style in which contrasting "major" and "minor" intervals in the same key were often utilised for their effect (quotes used there because the concepts of "major" and "minor" had not by that time been developed).
KevinCollins wrote:......Remember that the lute of that time had movable frets, that tuning was not tempered,-
I don't think this is true in the way you have stated it (see my comment above).-
I'll give you this one, pog. I am not sure which lute, fixed-fretted or movable-fretted, Ballet played. However, even-tempering did not come in until later, so I think we are talking about the same thing, regarding the "effect" or "mood". Their concept of intervals was different than ours. We can agree on that.

And you are right, the Banjonium is a later instrument from Aguado's student, Descartes (only recently discovered in an etching found at the flea market at Notting Hill, on my trip there last year).

See previous post --

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37241&start=34

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Kevin
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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by pogmoor » Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:55 pm

KevinCollins wrote: And you are right, the Banjonium is a later instrument from Aguado's student, Descartes (only recently discovered in an etching found at the flea market at Notting Hill, on my trip there last year).

See previous post --

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=37241&start=34
:lol:

A clear case of cogito ergo something else - or I plink therfore I am :!:
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Re: Greensleeves: again

Post by Francisco » Fri Jun 30, 2017 6:53 pm

Another Englishman, Stanley Yates, in his Graded Repertoire for Guitar, Book 1, page 48, gives it as F# and, in a foot note, he says rather emphatically:
"This is the melody as I heard it growing up in England [...] On the topic of modes, this is a Dorian-mode melody and the F# in measure 2 is correct!"
My daughter has a music box that plays this tune. Comes with F#.

I agree that the F natural is kind of nice too and lends a certain freshness to the F# in the next section. But my ear is definitely more used to the F sharps in the first section as well.
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