Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

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zinc1024

Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by zinc1024 » Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:51 pm

The final 3 measures of Allegro Solemne (before the final two measures of simple block chords, so actually measures 1-3 of the final 5 measures...) are fingered rather "interestingly" in the Delcamp version.

I in turn made up my own "interesting" fingering that also, like the Delcamp version, attempted to keep using the open 2nd string for the B. Lots of cross fingering with the right hand...complicated.

My instructor pretty much gagged over this and pointed out how it's really quite simple, just three different Bm chord positions, first the lower part of a Gm chord shape barring the 4th fret (and using 4 on the 2nd string to play the D), then an Em chord shape barring on the 7th fret, and finally a Cm shape (actually a between Em and Cm shape, not a shape in the "CAGED" system technically) on the 10th-12th frets. So much easier and pretty straightforward.

With this approach, they are simple arpeggios (except for catching that one D with 4 early on), and there's little risk of fouling up.

Curious if others have any issues with this approach, or if it's actually the "standard" for those measures?

I love playing this piece...got it fully in my head how, working on getting my right hand fully planting and stable.

-Kevin

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:45 pm

A very nice example of how understanding chords/harmony makes life on the guitar a whole lot easier :bravo:

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Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by James Stephens » Wed Mar 23, 2011 2:20 am

It's true that the chord shapes are simple but it's hard not to have tiny gaps between the shifting when doing it that way up to speed no matter how good your left hand is. You hear this even with great players. David Russell also uses open strings and more complicated r.h. fingerings to achieve a more fluid effect with the arpeggios. I started to do the same because I prefer the sound of it that way (probably similar to the op's solution). The downside is that it's harder to remember, but if you think it's superior musically and that you can do it then go for it.
James

zinc1024

Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by zinc1024 » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:03 pm

Thank you Denian, and thank you James, I suspected there were "alternative viewpoints" on this! I'll try to find and watch Russell doing it (hey maybe he'll play it as his upcoming show in San Francisco! I've got 2nd row center seats so I'll have a fine view). Yes I've been noting the "tension" between the optimization of the arpeggios vs. the cost of the chord shifts.

-Kevin

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Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by elindley » Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:45 pm

zinc1024 wrote:The final 3 measures of Allegro Solemne (before the final two measures of simple block chords, so actually measures 1-3 of the final 5 measures...) are fingered rather "interestingly" in the Delcamp version.

I in turn made up my own "interesting" fingering that also, like the Delcamp version, attempted to keep using the open 2nd string for the B. Lots of cross fingering with the right hand...complicated.

My instructor pretty much gagged over this and pointed out how it's really quite simple, just three different Bm chord positions, first the lower part of a Gm chord shape barring the 4th fret (and using 4 on the 2nd string to play the D), then an Em chord shape barring on the 7th fret, and finally a Cm shape (actually a between Em and Cm shape, not a shape in the "CAGED" system technically) on the 10th-12th frets. So much easier and pretty straightforward.

With this approach, they are simple arpeggios (except for catching that one D with 4 early on), and there's little risk of fouling up.

Curious if others have any issues with this approach, or if it's actually the "standard" for those measures?

I love playing this piece...got it fully in my head how, working on getting my right hand fully planting and stable.

-Kevin
Here's a fingering version that incorporates some of your ideas, but no open B string. -- Edward
LeCatASLast.jpg
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Fredonia_Guitar_11

Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by Fredonia_Guitar_11 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:11 pm

-Kevin[/quote]

Here's a fingering version that incorporates some of your ideas, but no open B string. -- Edward
LeCatASLast.jpg
[/quote]


This is a popular fingering for this passage, but has a lot of shifts. While a good fingering I personally like incorporating as many open strings as possible to create "gaps" for the LH to shift positions. It gives a little more time and makes the passage much more manageable. A lot of shifts while doable, is a risky fingering to me. That's why I agree with the idea of open strings. Zinc, could you post a version of your fingering?

Here is the fingering I use:
Catedral Fingering.jpg
Do you see the "gaps" right before shifts? It gives time to shift while you playing the open string. Also, notice the use of guide fingers which also gives something to ease the passage some. Hope this helps!
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zinc1024

Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by zinc1024 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:07 pm

Edward, I can't personally handle all those fretboard shifts.

Fredonia, that's creative, but I don't like going "on and off" on the strings like that and for me at least, it doesn't help me get to speed with accuracy.

Sorry I guess I should know how to whip up a short score (what s/w are you all using for this? freeware from somewhere?), but I don't have time at the moment to figure that all out so I'll just describe it best I can.

What I'm settling on only has one chordal shift (with a final scalar sequence) and is keeping a steady p-i-m-a-m-i-p pattern going as well, though occasionally with successive strokes on a common string, and once skipping a string.

Barre at IV (Gm shape playing the Bm chord) and play a-m-i-p-i-m on 3-4-5-6-5-4. Then use 4 at fret VII on string 3, stroke with a, lift and still holding the Gm shape chord play m-i-p-i-m on 3-4-5-4-3.

Then make the only LH shift needed, to barre (Em shape, Bm chord) on VII. Continue the arpeggio pattern, a-m-i-p-i-m on 2-3-4-5-4-3.

Then the string skip: stroke with a-m-i-p-i-m on 1-2-3-4-3-2

Then put 4 on X on the 1st string and continue the arpeggio pattern stroking with a, then lift and play m-i-p-i-m on 1-2-3-2-1.

Finish with alternative i-m strokes: place 4 on X and play with i, slide to XIV with 4 and play with m, place 2 on XII on string 2 and stroke with i, place 1on X on string 1 and stroke with m, 4 again on XIV with i, then way up with 4 to whatever the heck fret that is and finish with the final two chords.

I like it!! Again, only one shift as I count it, and you can "rip" it fairly easily because it's consistent p-i-m-a-m-i-p arpeggiation.

Give it a try and see what you think.

-Kevin

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Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by Non Tabius » Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:57 pm

I dont want to be a wet blanket here.But I think one should ask what the composers intentions were.If one looks at the general feel of the whole piece all three sections, ,then there are clear indications as to what strings are to be
open and where not.Besides the technicality involved there are definite intented harmonic colourings which I believe the composer is very definite about.I believe the general accepted fingerings without the open B's should be used as a contrast to the other open string sections already indicated in previous sections,mainly from an intended sound or effect point of view.I dont believe Barrios intended to lay it on thick with yet anothe open almost la folia effect on the ending as well.Then again its all about choices,thanks for your suggestion ,nevertheless.

zinc1024

Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by zinc1024 » Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:56 pm

What are the "clear indications" from Barrios that you are referring to?

So far I'm noting that every professional version I've seen (Vidovic, Samantha Muir, Azabagic) or has been referred to here (Russell) has been somewhat to very different, and the statement was made that Russell uses the open B approach (I can't find any video of him playing it myself).

I don't view this as a question of right/wrong, just some interesting choices to mess around with in working on the piece.

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Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by Non Tabius » Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:04 am

I don't view this as a question of right/wrong, just some interesting choices to mess around with in working on the piece.
[/quote]
As I stated earlier Zink ,I believe it is about choices as to what alternative fingerings to use for the same notes in a piece.Whether they are right or wrong depends on the perception of the indervidual player interpreting the piece within his or her capabilities.Now to adress what I interpret as the intention of the composer with regards to the whole suite .The suite is based on deep religious beliefs ,according to wikipedia .I see this suite on par with the last
Supper by Leonardo De Vinci or The Chiconne from Bachs BWV 1004 where Bach pays hommage to his deceased wife,
or in the case of De Vinci, where every person placed around the table is seated with specific intent by the Artist .Therefore there are specific textures chosen by these repected painters and composers ie. not different shades of grey but specific shades or harmonies .
For example if one looks at bar 40 of the Prelude saudade where there is that rather difficult F# sus arpeggio ,from my perspective,one could choose to play the F# on the 2nd string V position sacrificing the F# crotchet sustained over the open B .Or the playing the more difficult stretch in the written option ,which I believe was the composers intention from an effect or texture point of view.I think ease of playing is a secondary consideration when adressing this suit leaving little room for jamming about .No disrespect intended Zink ,I understand what you mean by messing about and I dont mean to come across as some ridged purist allowing no room for experimentation.All I am trying to convey is that these experimentations should not distort the intentions of the composer .I therefore believe that the first option of the Bm inversions at the end of the Allegro are well balanced not using the open B option regardless of how some Players of note may interpret otherwise.Here then Bar 40 of The Prelude to convey my perseption of an example what Barrios clealy intended.
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Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by James Stephens » Fri Mar 25, 2011 6:12 am

Non Tabius, I have to re-ask zinc's question, what are Barrios's clear indications regarding the allegro? Do they even exist? I thought that the various existing versions of printed music for this are based on different recordings. Different in time and content.

In the allegro, Barrios has all kinds of over ringing melodic material and here we are talking about a short arpeggio section--notes that are meant to ring out together. Rearranging which strings are used for said arpeggios hardly constitutes 'laying it on thick with an almost la folia type effect' as you say (if I understand what you mean) though that effect does occur consistently throughout prior to that part! It's all over the place in this virtuosic movement so I don't think that is a convincing argument. (ps) It would seem that if a contrast in effect was intended, that it would not suddenly appear in only these three measures of this section, but rather an entire section. To me, a more open sound is more consistent with what precedes it.

I think you're over thinking this and reading too much into Barrios's intentions. In this section, as long as the highest note of each arpeggio is not disturbed by a particular fingering-which would disturb the melodic ascent, then the chord notes can be sustained in a number of ways without hurting the climatic declaration of the ending Bm's.
James

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Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by Non Tabius » Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:30 am

I think you're over thinking this and reading too much into Barrios's intentions. In this section, as long as the highest note of each arpeggio is not disturbed by a particular fingering-which would disturb the melodic ascent, then the chord notes can be sustained in a number of ways without hurting the climatic declaration of the ending Bm's.[/
According to the arrangements I have James there are no melodic accents on the high notes or anywhere else in the final Bm section ,as there are in the previous bars.Be that as it may, I have already explained why I choose to play the accepted written version and If I interpret that as the composers intention then that in all fairness is my choice.I see nothing to defend here .My parts are clearly written and I am happy that way .If someone else chooses an alternative option ,then so be it.

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Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by James Stephens » Fri Mar 25, 2011 9:09 am

Non Tabius, I didn't say the highest notes of those arpeggios have accents but they most certainly are perceived as melodic in nature and I think they should be thought of as such by their position as the highest and first notes of each arpeggio and that they climb up to he highest B for the final chord. There's a clear melodic direction happening there.

I have no problem with you playing it how you want, I just wanted to point out that there is no 'accepted written version' left directly by Barrios (that I know of). Combine that with his own habit of changing his works and improvising in concerts and it's hard to think that he would be rigid on a matter like we're talking about here.

PS, just realized that I think you were confusing the word ascent with accent. I was talking about how the melody was climbing in pitch.

Edit: I have no idea about existing manuscripts so I've added this to make that point clear. Someone with more knowledge of that can chime in on that point.
Last edited by James Stephens on Fri Mar 25, 2011 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by Non Tabius » Fri Mar 25, 2011 1:22 pm

Sorry James I did misinterpret your use of the word ascent to mean the accentution of specific notes.I agree that there is also a specific pattern to the way the inversions of Bm take a specific form when acending to the 19th frt using the first notes of each group as guide notes which create an implied melody if one chooses to see it that way .Itwould depend on personal taste and style of the player .
I just would not mess with the existing written fingerings and the effects they create for me.If I may draw a comparison to Prelude 4 HVL the Animato section , here the bass notes are full crotchets through the semi-quavers creating a definite melodic pattern which Villo-Lobos intends to be performed as I see it.The Campanella section in Op 8 no 4 by Barrios also indicates a specific half -note to crotchet waltz melody line intended by Barrios .His brief is just as clear in the last bars of the Allegro of La Catedral with no specific melody just balanced arpeggios as I try and understand him or choose to interpret him.This little extract might clarify what I mean by interpreting Barrios for what its worth ,for interest sake not to prove or disprove any particular point.http://www.cybozone.com/fg/jeong.html

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Re: Final arpeggios in Allegro Solemne (La Catedral)

Post by James Stephens » Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:57 pm

Does anyone know about the existing manuscripts of this piece? I'd read Rico Stover's preface in his edition but it only states that there are different versions so I assume there are in fact manuscripts of some quality or another out there somewhere and not just the recordings. More pertinent here, I believe he said elsewhere that Barrios didn't leave much in the way of fingerings in his pieces anyway, but I don't know first hand.
James

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