D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

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The classical guitar lessons are free. They are aimed at the isolated amateur who does not have access to a teacher. To join the class, apply for registration into the students group.

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Andrei Puhach
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Andrei Puhach » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:11 pm

DaveMoutrie wrote:
Andrei Puhach wrote:My second part of the assignment:
- pages 66-67 ANONYME (ca. 1860) VALSE

A couple of mistakes and hiccups here and there but I think I've got the idea of "these two simultaneous strokes, one a strongly played rest stroke, the other a gentle free stroke".
Well done Andrie, I think you have it pretty much nailed - you're propably way ahead of the rest of us.

The tonal quality of the rest strokes does sound a little twangy in places though almost as if your finger nail is hooking on the string. I notice that your finger is attacking the string at exactly 90 degrees, it could be an idea to change the angle slightly, or alter the proportion of nail/flesh stiking the string.

Apart from that everything else (fingerings, dampings etc.) look pretty good. :D
Thank you, DaveMoutrie, for your comment!
Somehow this hand position is most comfortable to me. I can rotate it just a little but then it is difficult to do the free/rest stroke combination. With this hand position I can do this in a pretty much relaxed way which helps thumb/ring finger synchronization a lot.
And yes, the tone really depends on the nail shape and how hooked it is. I learned how to unhook them (with a heated spoon). This really works. Also, I played loud and the strings are hard-tension carbon rather than nylon. Carbon strings might sound a bit brighter.
You can search this forum or Youtube "Andrei Puhach Capricho Arabe" where I tried to get the best tone I could (hopefully, it was much warmer than in this Valse).
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Andrei Puhach
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Andrei Puhach » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:20 pm

DaveMoutrie wrote:
Andrei Puhach wrote:My first part of the assignment:
- page 99 Jean-François DELCAMP ACCORDS
Very good - I had to use the ritardando in bar 5 of exercise 45 as an excuse to slow right down and get the string dampings in. You are obviously very deft of thumb as you seem to manage it with only the slightest hint of ritardando.

Just wondering if you have been practicing any arpeggio exercises for thumb dexterity?

Thanks and well done. :bravo:
Thank you! No, I did not do exercises targeting the thumb only. Only here (Delcamp D02, D03) I learned to do damps.
Ritardando is our friend :)
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Andrei Puhach
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Andrei Puhach » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:24 pm

Ed Butler wrote:Andrei - well played. I paid particular attention to your right hand and saw little movement except for the fingers which is one of my summer goals.
Thank you, Ed! But please don't try to adapt the same right hand position (it is far from perfect and only works for me). Professor Delcamp's plucking hand is a the way to go and a perfect model.
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Andrei Puhach
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Posts: 268
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Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Andrei Puhach » Tue Apr 11, 2017 5:31 pm

Andrei Puhach wrote:
DaveMoutrie wrote:
Andrei Puhach wrote:My second part of the assignment:
- pages 66-67 ANONYME (ca. 1860) VALSE

A couple of mistakes and hiccups here and there but I think I've got the idea of "these two simultaneous strokes, one a strongly played rest stroke, the other a gentle free stroke".
Well done Andrie, I think you have it pretty much nailed - you're propably way ahead of the rest of us.

The tonal quality of the rest strokes does sound a little twangy in places though almost as if your finger nail is hooking on the string. I notice that your finger is attacking the string at exactly 90 degrees, it could be an idea to change the angle slightly, or alter the proportion of nail/flesh stiking the string.

Apart from that everything else (fingerings, dampings etc.) look pretty good. :D
Thank you, DaveMoutrie, for your comment!
Somehow this hand position is most comfortable to me. I can rotate it just a little but then it is difficult to do the free/rest stroke combination. With this hand position I can do this in a pretty much relaxed way which helps thumb/ring finger synchronization a lot.
And yes, the tone really depends on the nail shape and how hooked it is. I learned how to unhook them (with a heated spoon). This really works. Also, I played loud and the strings are hard-tension carbon rather than nylon. Carbon strings might sound a bit brighter.
You can search this forum or Youtube "Andrei Puhach Capricho Arabe" where I tried to get the best tone I could (hopefully, it was much warmer than in this Valse).
Actually, I played the rest stroke way too loud (to highlight the contrast). Now I tried to do it a bit softer and it sounds much better. I'll probably re-do this assignment in a couple of days.
Cordoba C9

DaveMoutrie
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by DaveMoutrie » Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:42 pm

Andrei Puhach wrote:
Andrei Puhach wrote:
DaveMoutrie wrote:
Well done Andrie, I think you have it pretty much nailed - you're propably way ahead of the rest of us.

The tonal quality of the rest strokes does sound a little twangy in places though almost as if your finger nail is hooking on the string. I notice that your finger is attacking the string at exactly 90 degrees, it could be an idea to change the angle slightly, or alter the proportion of nail/flesh stiking the string.

Apart from that everything else (fingerings, dampings etc.) look pretty good. :D
Thank you, DaveMoutrie, for your comment!
Somehow this hand position is most comfortable to me. I can rotate it just a little but then it is difficult to do the free/rest stroke combination. With this hand position I can do this in a pretty much relaxed way which helps thumb/ring finger synchronization a lot.
And yes, the tone really depends on the nail shape and how hooked it is. I learned how to unhook them (with a heated spoon). This really works. Also, I played loud and the strings are hard-tension carbon rather than nylon. Carbon strings might sound a bit brighter.
You can search this forum or Youtube "Andrei Puhach Capricho Arabe" where I tried to get the best tone I could (hopefully, it was much warmer than in this Valse).
Actually, I played the rest stroke way too loud (to highlight the contrast). Now I tried to do it a bit softer and it sounds much better. I'll probably re-do this assignment in a couple of days.
Interesting, I listened to you Capriche Arabe and the tone sounds really good. This is a challenging piece - must be at least grade 5 and you play it really well and with sensitivity. I may try the thing with the heated spoon, do you heat it in a mug of hot water?
Alhambra 4p Cedar
Barnes and Mullins classical
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DaveMoutrie
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by DaveMoutrie » Tue Apr 11, 2017 8:08 pm

Here is my attempt at the Valse - still needs work. I'm rushing it a little and still making mistakes. I will keep practicing and re submit when I have it better.



Youtube
Alhambra 4p Cedar
Barnes and Mullins classical
Yamaha silent guitar

Andrei Puhach
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Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:34 pm
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Andrei Puhach » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:38 pm

DaveMoutrie wrote:...

Interesting, I listened to you Capriche Arabe and the tone sounds really good. This is a challenging piece - must be at least grade 5 and you play it really well and with sensitivity. I may try the thing with the heated spoon, do you heat it in a mug of hot water?
Thanks! I've been learning it for ~2 years. Challenging like hell.
I heat the tip of a teaspoon with a lighter for ~10-15 seconds, then wrap the tip with a fine sandpaper as a protection layer, then place it between the nail and flesh (sometimes it burns as the tip touches the flesh under the nail) and put some pressure outwards and hold for ~10 seconds. Repeat several times if necessary, experiment with the best shape/curve. No harm to nails. Here is original discussion of this trick: viewtopic.php?f=87&t=69527
Another trick I used recently (after breaking a nail on my index finger :( ) is super-glue + tea bag paper on top. Works great. But this is a different story.
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Andrei Puhach
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Posts: 268
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Andrei Puhach » Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:45 pm

DaveMoutrie wrote:Here is my attempt at the Valse - still needs work. I'm rushing it a little and still making mistakes. I will keep practicing and re submit when I have it better.



Youtube
Sounds great, but do you play rest stroke? I guess the point of the exercise is to play rest stroke loud and free strokes very soft.
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Andrei Puhach
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Andrei Puhach » Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:23 am

Andrei Puhach wrote: Actually, I played the rest stroke way too loud (to highlight the contrast). Now I tried to do it a bit softer and it sounds much better. I'll probably re-do this assignment in a couple of days.
OK, here is take #2 (the tone should be better now).

- pages 66-67 ANONYME (ca. 1860) VALSE

Youtube
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DaveMoutrie
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by DaveMoutrie » Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:51 am

Andrei Puhach wrote:
DaveMoutrie wrote:Here is my attempt at the Valse - still needs work. I'm rushing it a little and still making mistakes. I will keep practicing and re submit when I have it better.
Sounds great, but do you play rest stroke? I guess the point of the exercise is to play rest stroke loud and free strokes very soft.
Thank you for your comments Andrei. Of course, the purpose of the rest stroke is to make the melody louder and stand out from the rest of the tune. The camera angle makes it impossible to see, but I was playing rest stroke throughout.

Having listened again to the version of Jean-Francois immediately after mine, I see that he makes the melody stand out far more than I do. I did brake the nail on my ring finger a couple of weeks ago and it has not quite grown back yet, so is shorter than the other two. Also I think my ring finger is not as strong as the other two. I will have another go and try to get it better though.
Alhambra 4p Cedar
Barnes and Mullins classical
Yamaha silent guitar

DaveMoutrie
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by DaveMoutrie » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:09 am

Andrei Puhach wrote:
Andrei Puhach wrote: Actually, I played the rest stroke way too loud (to highlight the contrast). Now I tried to do it a bit softer and it sounds much better. I'll probably re-do this assignment in a couple of days.
OK, here is take #2 (the tone should be better now).

- pages 66-67 ANONYME (ca. 1860) VALSE
Thanks for posting Andrie, that does sound much better although not as sweet as your Capriche Arabe (we don't have 2 years to practice these pieces).

You also have it error free - something I have yet to achieve.

The tones still sound a little harsh for a romantic piece though, but I'm guessing a lot of this is down to the carbon fibre strings. Now you have it technically perfect it could be time to start working on dynamics.
Alhambra 4p Cedar
Barnes and Mullins classical
Yamaha silent guitar

Andrei Puhach
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Posts: 268
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Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Andrei Puhach » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:07 pm

DaveMoutrie wrote:
Andrei Puhach wrote:
DaveMoutrie wrote:Here is my attempt at the Valse - still needs work. I'm rushing it a little and still making mistakes. I will keep practicing and re submit when I have it better.
Sounds great, but do you play rest stroke? I guess the point of the exercise is to play rest stroke loud and free strokes very soft.
Thank you for your comments Andrei. Of course, the purpose of the rest stroke is to make the melody louder and stand out from the rest of the tune. The camera angle makes it impossible to see, but I was playing rest stroke throughout.

Having listened again to the version of Jean-Francois immediately after mine, I see that he makes the melody stand out far more than I do. I did brake the nail on my ring finger a couple of weeks ago and it has not quite grown back yet, so is shorter than the other two. Also I think my ring finger is not as strong as the other two. I will have another go and try to get it better though.
Got it, you play it very fluently, looks like this technique is not new for you :)
Sorry to hear about the nail... I know how frustrating it can be.
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Andrei Puhach
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Posts: 268
Joined: Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:34 pm
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Andrei Puhach » Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:17 pm

DaveMoutrie wrote:
Andrei Puhach wrote:
Andrei Puhach wrote: Actually, I played the rest stroke way too loud (to highlight the contrast). Now I tried to do it a bit softer and it sounds much better. I'll probably re-do this assignment in a couple of days.
OK, here is take #2 (the tone should be better now).

- pages 66-67 ANONYME (ca. 1860) VALSE
Thanks for posting Andrie, that does sound much better although not as sweet as your Capriche Arabe (we don't have 2 years to practice these pieces).

You also have it error free - something I have yet to achieve.

The tones still sound a little harsh for a romantic piece though, but I'm guessing a lot of this is down to the carbon fibre strings.
Noted. Another thing affecting tone is recording equipment. I record assignments on a old Nexus 6 phone camera+mic. Capricho Arabe was recorded on a good mic (Snowball) which captures the real sound very well. I compared the two: the phone mic gives somewhat shallower sound.
DaveMoutrie wrote: Now you have it technically perfect it could be time to start working on dynamics.
Thank you but it is not perfect, and I already started working on an optional piece :) Not sure I really want to keep pushing Valse...
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Ed Butler
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Ed Butler » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:41 pm

Andrei, David - question

When you are learning a piece for the first time -- how do you attack it? Learning small chunks at a time? Right hand movements first then add left hand? Or some other method?

Thanks for your help

Ed Butler

Andrei Puhach
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Re: D03 Classical guitar lesson 08

Post by Andrei Puhach » Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:57 pm

Ed Butler wrote:Andrei, David - question

When you are learning a piece for the first time -- how do you attack it? Learning small chunks at a time? Right hand movements first then add left hand? Or some other method?

Thanks for your help

Ed Butler
Hi Ed, personally I don't have any special discipline here. Breaking a piece into chunks and working on each separately makes perfect sense, it is proved by many teachers and professionals.
I found that it is more efficient for me NOT to work on one fragment until it is perfect. I do a couple tries, then learn another fragment, then do a break, then return back to the first one. Probably the brain needs some time to assimilate the new information. Some fragments seem almost impossible at first (weird fingerings for example) but after a while they feel so natural that I don't even need sheet music any more.

Usually I practice both right and left hand movements together (never separately). Also, sometimes I don't follow the prescribed right hand fingering, just doing what feels natural and don't forget about alternating.
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