D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

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The classical guitar lessons are free. They are aimed at the isolated amateur who does not have access to a teacher. To join the class, apply for registration into the students group.

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Colin Bullock
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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Colin Bullock » Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:21 am

Just to let you know I will be updating the index of completed assignments this weekend, but will only do further updates once each week until nearer the exam.

Andrei Puhach
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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Andrei Puhach » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:11 pm

Zafar Haq wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:40 am
Hi,Andrei,
In different discussions,it is advice to play scales both "tirando" and "Apoyando" techniques.
In same discussions,I picked more saying that for faster speed playing scales to use "Apoyando" technique. Segovia, suggesting and advising for his scales to use "Apoyando" technique.I don't know personally, what is good answer for your question.
Thank you, Zafar. I know this is a holy war topic, but I personally believe that tirando is more universal and has no rest stroke limitations. Thus, developing proper tirando technique (so that it sounds warm and round) is more worthwhile.

For faster scales I'd rather go with the three-finger approach (a m i a m i ... ) which I'm currently working on now (very difficult to do string crossing).
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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by JohnEllis » Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:33 pm

Andrei Puhach wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:54 am
I'm curious, why scales should be played Apoyando?
Hi Andrei, I can't give you a definitive answer on why, but I'll share what Segovia says in his scale notebook referenced by Zafar, for what it's worth, that it will "...correct faulty hand positions, gradually increase the strength of the fingers, and prepare the joints for later speed studies...":
Andrei Puhach wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:11 pm
For faster scales I'd rather go with the three-finger approach (a m i a m i ... ) which I'm currently working on now (very difficult to do string crossing).
Segovia also gives seven fingerings, one of which is: i m a m i m a, which has the advantage of eliminating the galloping rhythm that naturally arises from repeating a m i or i m a.
If music be the food of love, play on. --Shakespeare, Twelfth Night, 1.1

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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Andrei Puhach » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:44 pm

JohnEllis wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:33 pm
Andrei Puhach wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:54 am
I'm curious, why scales should be played Apoyando?
Hi Andrei, I can't give you a definitive answer on why, but I'll share what Segovia says in his scale notebook referenced by Zafar, for what it's worth, that it will "...correct faulty hand positions, gradually increase the strength of the fingers, and prepare the joints for later speed studies...":
Andrei Puhach wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 3:11 pm
For faster scales I'd rather go with the three-finger approach (a m i a m i ... ) which I'm currently working on now (very difficult to do string crossing).
Segovia also gives seven fingerings, one of which is: i m a m i m a, which has the advantage of eliminating the galloping rhythm that naturally arises from repeating a m i or i m a.
Thank you, John, for this info. I'm not sure how valid this point is for beginners that rest stroke can correct faulty hand positions... One can play rest stroke with almost straight fingers, but it is impossible to play free stroke with straight fingers.
Also I don't see how i m a m i m a might help speed: m is used every 2nd note. in a m i a m i each finger is used every 3rd note, so it must be more efficient for very fast scales. Galloping is not a problem at all I think. Even after little practice i -> a transitions (or any others) are very smooth and do not affect rhythm in any way.

Update: it is time to start questioning how technique has been taught. I prefer an open approach with good reasoning rather than following dogmas or old traditions. Most great players might have acquired their skills in early childhood very naturally and do not really know how to teach. Look at tutorials from great guitarists: they teach and demonstrate one thing but when the actually play - do very different things. For example, the famous "from knuckle joint" thing. They teach to move from knuckle joint only and "into the palm", but when not just demonstrating they use the middle joint much more actively.
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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by JohnEllis » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:54 pm

Andrei Puhach wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:44 pm
Thank you, John, for this info.
You're welcome, Andrei.
If music be the food of love, play on. --Shakespeare, Twelfth Night, 1.1

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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by JohnEllis » Fri Nov 03, 2017 10:54 pm

Colin Bullock wrote:
Fri Nov 03, 2017 9:21 am
Just to let you know I will be updating the index of completed assignments this weekend, but will only do further updates once each week until nearer the exam.
Thanks for letting us know, Colin.
If music be the food of love, play on. --Shakespeare, Twelfth Night, 1.1

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Chu Bun
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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Chu Bun » Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:39 am

Certain teachers or "schools" advocate certain methods. I guest we should be open minded, try and see what work best for us.
Regarding Apoyando, I think resting one of your fingers on the string helps to stabilize the hand for very fast passages. There must be reasons that Apoyando is used extensively in Flamenco where blazing fast scales are an integral part of the style.
Personally, I leave out the "a" finger when trying to do anything "fast". For example, try to play Asturias using p-i-p-i, p-m-p-m, and p-a-p-a. The first two should be comparable in speed, but the last will be quite slower and it's not solely because the "a" finger is often weaker. I read somewhere that your hand has three "cables" for the fingers, one for the thumb, one for the index, and one shared by the rest. Your "a" because it's in the middle has to pulls along other two finger when it moves and thus has more inertia. I believe some players (Anna Vidovic ?) even plays tremolo using m-i-m instead of a-m-i.
p.s. Just tried Asturias, and p-a was not much slower, but it took more effort even when compared to p-pinky!

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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Andrei Puhach » Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:32 am

Chu Bun wrote:
Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:39 am
Certain teachers or "schools" advocate certain methods. I guest we should be open minded, try and see what work best for us.
Regarding Apoyando, I think resting one of your fingers on the string helps to stabilize the hand for very fast passages. There must be reasons that Apoyando is used extensively in Flamenco where blazing fast scales are an integral part of the style.
Personally, I leave out the "a" finger when trying to do anything "fast". For example, try to play Asturias using p-i-p-i, p-m-p-m, and p-a-p-a. The first two should be comparable in speed, but the last will be quite slower and it's not solely because the "a" finger is often weaker. I read somewhere that your hand has three "cables" for the fingers, one for the thumb, one for the index, and one shared by the rest. Your "a" because it's in the middle has to pulls along other two finger when it moves and thus has more inertia. I believe some players (Anna Vidovic ?) even plays tremolo using m-i-m instead of a-m-i.
p.s. Just tried Asturias, and p-a was not much slower, but it took more effort even when compared to p-pinky!
Chu, that's a very good point re flamenco actually. Indeed, they play scales with i-m mostly (called 'picado'?). I agree, it allows much more control. Yeah, some great guitarists play m-i-m tremolo indeed, but I would not follow that example actually...

That is impressive that you can play Asturias, I never even tried to start it, seems to be far beyond my skills.
Not sure why you are saying that p-a is harder than p-pinky.... I think a is much stronger than pinky, no?
What is really hard actually is a-m-a-m-a.... Just try to play our assignment Ferdinand CARULLI (1770-1841) PRELUDE N°7 opus 114 using variation C: pi-a-m-a-m-a. That's a real workout!
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Chu Bun
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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Chu Bun » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:09 pm

Andrei Puhach wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2017 4:32 am
Not sure why you are saying that p-a is harder than p-pinky.... I think a is much stronger than pinky, no?
"a" is sandwiched between two fingers that shared the same ligaments. It is easier to move either "m" or pinky compared to "a". At least that how it feels like for me. I believe it is the same case for piano players, ring fingers are more difficult to master.

Regarding Asturias, I never really learn to play it. When I was a kid in Vietnam, there was no Internet or even music sheets. So it was mostly learning directly from other kids and adults. The first section of Asturias is probably one of the most well know and easy to remember, and most of us could play it at a blazing speed. Another popular one among us was the electric guitar solo in "Burn" by the heavy metal band Deep Purple. The funny thing is I cannot play either piece now at any decent speed. I guess there is something magic about teenagers obsessed with speed that adults will never be able to understand or do.

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Binh NguyenKhac
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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Binh NguyenKhac » Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:17 pm

Paganini, Niccolò - Ghiribizzo n°17 Le Streghe

a pinky barr right after an index barr ... That's how to destroy one's pinky :shock: :?

Andrei Puhach
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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Andrei Puhach » Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:58 pm

Binh NguyenKhac wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 2:17 pm
Paganini, Niccolò - Ghiribizzo n°17 Le Streghe

a pinky barr right after an index barr ... That's how to destroy one's pinky :shock: :?
C'mon, it is just 2 strings, it is manageable. 3 strings would be much worse :)
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Binh NguyenKhac
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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Binh NguyenKhac » Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:25 am

NO NO NO 3 strings barre Image



Joke aside, after these etudes, I can see my left ring and pinky improve greatly. Yay

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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Andrei Puhach » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:28 pm

Binh, here is a real example of a 3 string pinky bar. BTW, this is a nice russian song called "There is only a moment" (but I did not learn it). Posting first bars here:
fWoaSKl - Imgur.png
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Chu Bun
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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by Chu Bun » Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:16 pm

I always thought barring with fingers other than 1 is an electric guitar technique. Without seeing the notation, I would normally do 1+234 instead of 1+4.

Here are my submission for two of the pieces. The first one is not up to speed and both have many dead notes, but I probably won't do any better with a few more days (or weeks) of practice. So here they are.


Youtube



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Re: D04 Classical guitar lesson 03

Post by JohnEllis » Thu Nov 09, 2017 7:27 pm

Chu Bun wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:16 pm
Here are my submission for two of the pieces.
Wow! Nice work, Chu.
I like how in the arpeggio study you were able to get a good, strong sound. I also thought your musicality in the Petite Study was nice, and I could hear your variations in volume.
John
If music be the food of love, play on. --Shakespeare, Twelfth Night, 1.1

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