What is Flamenco?

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Blondie
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by Blondie » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:20 pm

John Ross wrote: (apart from the guajira, which is Cuban and only flamenco insofar as it is related with P. de L.)
Not so. Guajiras is one of several flamenco forms known as Ida y Vuelta (literally 'there and back again') which are South American influenced styles, but still very much part of flamenco with cante and baile that complete the form. Guajiras existed as a flamenco palo long before PDL recorded his masterpiece in 1975, here is Ramon Montoya's from 1928:


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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:21 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Write_Rich wrote: - I suspect there is a decent Middle Eastern influence in Flamenco if you dig deep enough. I'm a classical guitarist so I am a little rough on my theory and history when it comes to Flamenco so correct me if I am wrong.
Indeed there is. The Moors brought most of Spain under Islamic rule in the 8th century. They brought instruments with them like the oud, which was (correct me if I'm wrong) an ancestor of the guitar.
Denian - I'd suggest its wrong to say the oud is an ancestor of the guitar, their lineages to my understanding are separate, despite some cross-over in that players on the one sometimes also played the other.

Re Moorish rule, not only did they rule Spain for 8 centuries or so, the Andalusian gypsies are of course originally from India, so from their origins, from their migration routes through historical middle-east and southern/eastern Europe, and their life at or near the bottom of the ladder in Moorish Spain, they had good cause to pick up a very arabic sounding sound both in note-choices and vocal delivery.

As pointed out elsewhere, some of the scales used in flamenco are related to those found in middle-eastern musics, and as I also like to point out, a scale is an abstraction of musical practice, and not something the creators of these styles set out to use.

I like to raise the subject of raga Bhairev (various spellings available) which is typically, starting on E; E, F, Gsharp, A, B, C, D sharp, E, and as a scale is also found in flamenco, and the music of eastern-European gypsy cultures too.
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guitarrista
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by guitarrista » Wed Jul 13, 2016 6:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:The following is from a CD cover by the sitarist Anoushka Shankar (daughter of Ravi) on the album Traveller. It's quite interesting:

This landmark album presents a unique collaboration between Indian and flamenco musicians, tracing the lineage of flamenco from India to Spain...

"When Anoushka plays pure Indian music, she's playing pure flamenco [..]"
Hmm.. :roll: yeah well if you (the blurb writer, not the messenger :D ) redefine it in a way no one uses the term..

"tracing the lineage of flamenco from India to Spain" - also seems quite the stretch. The Roma left India between 8th-10th century - some 500-700 years before they showed up in Andalusia.
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AndreiKrylov
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Thu Jul 14, 2016 1:27 pm

John Ross wrote:
AndreiKrylov wrote:There are actually excellent Asian or Russian born and raised musicians who play Flamenco...
Didn't doubt it for a second. But it's still (apart from the guajira, which is Cuban and only flamenco insofar as it is related with P. de L.) flamenco flamenco, Spanish flamenco, because no-one has yet developed any other kind. That'll happen, too, one day, I daresay.

(Why is everyone capitalising "flamenco"? Not you in particular, Andrei, your English is first-rate for a non-native, I mean everyone else. Stop it. We don't capitalise musical movements in English, the blues is not the Blues, rock is rock, fado is fado and flamenco is flamenco.)
Spanish flamenco? Yes .. but...
Flamenco is Andalusian. Gypsy music which evolved with many elements of Moorish and Jewish music of Andalusia. Spanish? They persecuted and throw out Jews and Moores, and Gypsies had a hard life in Spain too ...
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Ross
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by John Ross » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:28 pm

Blondie wrote:Not so. Guajiras is one of several flamenco forms known as Ida y Vuelta
Quite right, my mistake.

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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by philip caldwell » Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:45 pm

Andrew Fryer wrote:FWIW, I always hated Paco de Lucía. Carnegie Hall Flamenco is how I branded his superficial flash.
I had some good cassettes once, including just cante hondo, but they went the way of all cassettes. My gf then was Argentinian, but she had lived in Spain. We didn't discuss if there was flamenco in Argentina. Argentinian tango is originally from Sicily. All I have now is some Manitas de Plata stuff and not much else.
I think you have it back to front. Paco De lucia was a proper flamenco player unlike Manitas de Plata, who could imitate it well but was doing just that, imitating. If anyone should be branded superficial flash'´it is Manitas.
What people aren't mentioning here is that Flamenco has various styles ( Bulerías sevillanas, Alegrias etc) all of these are dances and they have their particular rhythmic patterns ,compás, which have to be learnt and stuck to strictly if accompanying dancers- otherwise you'd lose them. No group of dancers would consider anyone a flamenco player if they didn't know the dances and couldn't accompany them properly.
Paco knew this stuff. He was raised with it, soaked it up from family, friends and neighbours at a young age. He was a great Flamenco Guitarist.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by rojarosguitar » Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:59 pm

How great Paco de Lucia was can be heard e.g. here. This is as original and refined at the same time as it can get ... The command of the instrument is divine.


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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:12 pm

There are no words for the Paco video rojaros just put up. He was deep.
here's another - no words...



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Adam
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by Adam » Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:36 pm

Get the DVD Sabicas: King of the Flamenco Guitar. What you see and hear on that is flamenco.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by rojarosguitar » Wed Oct 05, 2016 5:19 am

Denian Arcoleo wrote:There are no words for the Paco video rojaros just put up. He was deep.
here's another - no words...



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Thanks for posting this Denian, this is marvelous ...
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Michael.N.
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by Michael.N. » Wed Oct 05, 2016 10:20 am

All a bit too refined for my tastes. Prefer something earthy, with a bit more grit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaN_7uVNsec
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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:30 pm

Michael.N. wrote:All a bit too refined for my tastes. Prefer something earthy, with a bit more grit.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaN_7uVNsec
Totally agree. That was more like the real thing in a real setting. Paco de Lucia is of the generation which took flamenco out of the taverns and into the concert hall, hence the more sphisticated, even jazzlike harmonies. Your post was even better. :D

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Andrew Fryer
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by Andrew Fryer » Wed Oct 05, 2016 1:32 pm

Thank God someone agrees with me! On second thoughts, what do I care?
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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Wed Oct 05, 2016 2:49 pm

Andrew Fryer wrote:Thank God someone agrees with me!
I'm not criticizing Paco de Lucia...how could any normal human do that? I'm just pointing out that real Flamenco is more a music of the tavern than the concert hall. But I'm pretty sure Paco would have done a great (stellar) job in the tavern too.

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rojarosguitar
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Re: What is Flamenco?

Post by rojarosguitar » Wed Oct 05, 2016 4:21 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Andrew Fryer wrote:Thank God someone agrees with me!
I'm not criticizing Paco de Lucia...how could any normal human do that? I'm just pointing out that real Flamenco is more a music of the tavern than the concert hall. But I'm pretty sure Paco would have done a great (stellar) job in the tavern too.
And it's all of this in his playing, too ... just taken in another direction at this time ...
Music is a big continent with different landscapes and corners. Some of them I do visit frequently, some from time to time and some I know from hearsay only ...

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