driverless cars

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
User avatar
Michael K7
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:49 pm
Location: NYC, for now

Re: driverless cars

Post by Michael K7 » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:34 am

My big concern with driverless cars is how they will react when law-ignoring pedestrians enter the mix.
Deal with reality, or reality will deal with you.

simonm
Amateur luthier
Posts: 6214
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:22 am
Location: Germany, Kronberg (near Frankfurt).

Re: driverless cars

Post by simonm » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:04 am

Michael K7 wrote:My big concern with driverless cars is how they will react when law-ignoring pedestrians enter the mix.
One experiment that is being done is that when the car (in fact for computer assisted driving) detects a pedestrian is will stop and project a zebra crossing on the road in order to acknowledge to the pedestrian that is has noticed them. For the more paranoid that leaves lots of story lines open ...

Pat Dodson
Posts: 2844
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:32 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: driverless cars

Post by Pat Dodson » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:33 am

simonm wrote:
Michael K7 wrote:My big concern with driverless cars is how they will react when law-ignoring pedestrians enter the mix.
One experiment that is being done is that when the car (in fact for computer assisted driving) detects a pedestrian is will stop and project a zebra crossing on the road in order to acknowledge to the pedestrian that is has noticed them. For the more paranoid that leaves lots of story lines open ...
That's an interesting example of the complexities of this. For a busy road with few pedestrians crossing, one can see the safety value of such a system. On a busy shopping high street or junction, with pedestrians taking advantage, it might mean that no car ever moves until that system is turned off. :?

User avatar
markodarko
Posts: 1879
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 9:41 pm
Location: Leyenda-On-Sea

Re: driverless cars

Post by markodarko » Thu Dec 08, 2016 10:42 am

Perhaps they should have multi-coloured lights at the front. When green it's in "aware of people" mode, but when set to "get me there as fast as possible!" mode, the lights go red in order to signify "I WILL run you over". :D
Negative, I am a meat popsicle.

User avatar
Jorge Oliveira
Posts: 355
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:17 pm
Location: Cascais, Portugal

Re: driverless cars

Post by Jorge Oliveira » Thu Dec 22, 2016 7:28 pm

Have you noticed that when cars and trucks become fully driverless, and assuming they cannot be tampered with easily, attacks such as the ones that occurred this summer in Nice, and more recently, in Berlin, will no longer be possible? :)
Aria A558, 655 mm, Cedar, 1987, Nagoya, Japan
Hermanos Camps Master, 650 mm, Cedar, 2014 (Nº 3), Spain

Andrew Pohlman
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:24 pm
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: driverless cars

Post by Andrew Pohlman » Thu Dec 22, 2016 8:54 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:Have you noticed that when cars and trucks become fully driverless, and assuming they cannot be tampered with easily, attacks such as the ones that occurred this summer in Nice, and more recently, in Berlin, will no longer be possible? :)
Not only could coding prevent unauthorized interaction with a vehicle, they could transmit a "dampening" field, and all vehicles in a given area will pull over, shut down, and cease to operate. The rapid transit system in San Francisco, BART, does this now for cell phones. They can wipe out cell phone traffic in an emergency. If there will be a street faire, or a normally open market like the Viktualienmarkt in Munich, just invoke the damping field as a prophylaxis during normal business hours so NOBODY can commandeer a vehicle.

On a somber note, I feel for my friends in Germany. I grieve with them for the loss of their brothers and sisters.
2013 Rodriguez FF Sabicas blanco
2015 Trevor Gore custom Neoclassical
- redwood top, Palo dorado B+Ss.

simonm
Amateur luthier
Posts: 6214
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2009 10:22 am
Location: Germany, Kronberg (near Frankfurt).

Re: driverless cars

Post by simonm » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:32 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:Have you noticed that when cars and trucks become fully driverless, and assuming they cannot be tampered with easily, attacks such as the ones that occurred this summer in Nice, and more recently, in Berlin, will no longer be possible? :)
On the other hand, load a virus and the vehicle could be directed to do whatever the virus writer decided. Shutting down comms would have no effect.

User avatar
tom0311
Amateur luthier
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:37 pm
Location: Witney, Oxfordshire

Re: driverless cars

Post by tom0311 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 9:41 pm

Jorge Oliveira wrote:Have you noticed that when cars and trucks become fully driverless, and assuming they cannot be tampered with easily, attacks such as the ones that occurred this summer in Nice, and more recently, in Berlin, will no longer be possible? :)
I'm of the opinion that it'll make it more possible. All it could take is 1 vulnerability exploited on many vehicles and you've got a problem. It happens to computers and servers today, turn a car into a computer and you're opening it up to the same threats. In fact the security holes and spying related to the 'internet of things' (every day gadgets having internet connections) should perhaps make us worry a bit.

Cars being hacked isn't unheard of already, not even driverless cars. Oh, and planes.
“There are two means of refuge from the misery of life - music and cats.”

User avatar
Denian Arcoleo
Composer
Posts: 6059
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:39 pm
Location: Somerset, England

Re: driverless cars

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:21 pm

tom0311 wrote: I'm of the opinion that it'll make it more possible. All it could take is 1 vulnerability exploited on many vehicles and you've got a problem. It happens to computers and servers today, turn a car into a computer and you're opening it up to the same threats.
Sounds extremely plausible to me. The hackers are at least as clever as the designers. Take it a stage further; imagine a mass hack set for a particular time on a particular day. All the cars in a region could be 'told' to kill their occupants. Instead of having a lone terrorist driving a single vehicle you could have a fleet of killer cars acting in unison.

Andrew Pohlman
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:24 pm
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: driverless cars

Post by Andrew Pohlman » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:28 pm

Pat Dodson wrote:While I'm not worried about potential Big Brother spying, hacking and use by terrorists, I think there are many more prosaic technological and human nature reasons to suspect the adoption of driverless vehicles will have less pace and volume than some suggest. Here's an alternative view that chimes with me. Your thoughts might vary of course and that's fine. 8)

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/phys.org/n ... ent=safari
I finally got around to viewing the link Pat provided. The article points out some downsides that could appear to be unexpected consequences. The risk versus reward matrix is what's in question.

One example in the article was reduced income from speeding and parking tickets. True, but that will be offset by reduced need for officers and meter maids. This is akin to saying we should not develop electric cars because they will put refinery workers out of work. For driverless cars, I think the positive benefits, overall, will outweigh any disadvantages.

Speaking tangibly about job loss, I was outsourced from a job at the age of 50. I retrained myself for a radical career change with help from nobody. That was brutal, but I adapted to change. Whoever is displaced from a job due to driverless cars will have ample warning and a slow curve of change affording plenty of time to adapt. Unlike myself that was abruptly tossed to the wolves! Having gone through that, I know others can too. And I am simply not bothered by the fact that Body Shops will be going out of business due to fewer accidents, as postulated in the article. Body Shop guys can retrain for jobs as Automotive Computer Techs!
2013 Rodriguez FF Sabicas blanco
2015 Trevor Gore custom Neoclassical
- redwood top, Palo dorado B+Ss.

User avatar
tom0311
Amateur luthier
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:37 pm
Location: Witney, Oxfordshire

Re: driverless cars

Post by tom0311 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:34 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote: Sounds extremely plausible to me. The hackers are at least as clever as the designers. Take it a stage further; imagine a mass hack set for a particular time on a particular day. All the cars in a region could be 'told' to kill their occupants. Instead of having a lone terrorist driving a single vehicle you could have a fleet of killer cars acting in unison.
The other problem that's reared its head, is some 'IOT' devices are designed and manufactured by companies with less network security experience than the 'normal' IT businesses. Driverless cars may well be the same. Shipping devices with dictionary word admin passwords, things like that. It's a can of worms. Not to mention the privacy issues that we've already seen with smart TVs and the like.
“There are two means of refuge from the misery of life - music and cats.”

Jeffrey Armbruster
Posts: 1423
Joined: Fri Dec 27, 2013 3:16 am
Location: Berkeley, California

Re: driverless cars

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:36 pm

San Francisco has shut down Uber's driverless car program in the city. As usual, Uber simply refused to follow a court order to comply with stopping the vehicles and continued on until, finally, they stopped today...I think! It's a headline in the Chronicle and I haven't read the story.

I find Uber's arrogance appalling. Acting as if above the law. But a lot of tech companies in the area do that all the time in a variety of ways. Most people not associated with tech in the area really dislike that culture. And rightly so.
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
Takamine C132S

User avatar
tom0311
Amateur luthier
Posts: 1433
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:37 pm
Location: Witney, Oxfordshire

Re: driverless cars

Post by tom0311 » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:39 pm

Just to add to my last post, for some examples of dreadful IOT security google 'defcon IOT hackers' and read the article on CSO about it.
“There are two means of refuge from the misery of life - music and cats.”

User avatar
AndreiKrylov
Posts: 1697
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:22 pm
Location: Canada, USA, Mexico, Portugal, Spain

Re: driverless cars

Post by AndreiKrylov » Thu Dec 22, 2016 10:55 pm

tom0311 wrote:
Denian Arcoleo wrote: Sounds extremely plausible to me. The hackers are at least as clever as the designers. Take it a stage further; imagine a mass hack set for a particular time on a particular day. All the cars in a region could be 'told' to kill their occupants. Instead of having a lone terrorist driving a single vehicle you could have a fleet of killer cars acting in unison.
The other problem that's reared its head, is some 'IOT' devices are designed and manufactured by companies with less network security experience than the 'normal' IT businesses. Driverless cars may well be the same. Shipping devices with dictionary word admin passwords, things like that. It's a can of worms. Not to mention the privacy issues that we've already seen with smart TVs and the like.
totally agree!
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at Spotify, iTunes, Apple Music, Amazon Prime etc. Thanks!

Andrew Pohlman
Posts: 919
Joined: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:24 pm
Location: SF Bay Area

Re: driverless cars

Post by Andrew Pohlman » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:06 pm

tom0311 wrote:Just to add to my last post, for some examples of dreadful IOT security google 'defcon IOT hackers' and read the article on CSO about it.
One critical thing mentioned in that write up :: "the rush to bring new 'smart' devices to market will unfortunately mean that many of them will have critical flaws" :: keyword being "rush". Driverless cars are not being rushed. Nor are they being developed by the foolhardy. Yes, we need to pay attention the potential for destructive hacking. It's rats and holes. I am confident that excellent and safe design will be achieved.

Lame system admins are usually the root cause of systems hacks. Rushing or cutting security corners is usually the culprit of security failures for engineered products. I work for a government agency, and I can tell you security is a joke. If driverless cars were a government run program, yeah, I'd be worried. But when for-profit companies will lose it all if their products fail, you can bet they are doing everything they can make them rock solid.

Will there be problems. Undoubtedly. Will those problems be solved. In my opinion, yes.
2013 Rodriguez FF Sabicas blanco
2015 Trevor Gore custom Neoclassical
- redwood top, Palo dorado B+Ss.

Return to “The Café”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot], Contreras, MarkL and 2 guests