driverless cars

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guitarrista
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Re: driverless cars

Post by guitarrista » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Andrew Pohlman wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:16 pm
When you look at what is on the road being tested for approval right now, you realize that autonomous cars are already here. The engineering behind the scenes has yet to be honed to perfection [...]
Nope, autonomous cars are not already here and won't be any time soon. "The engineering behind the scenes has yet to be honed to perfection" - yes, in other words, not ready.

They have fundamental problems which cannot be solved easily. Autonomous cars will be a reality soon only if one redefines "autonomous" to its antonym.

The whole "autonomous cars" movement in North America is perplexing to me as it runs contrary to the deepest held cultural norms around cars and driving them (associated with self-reliance and independence). Basically no one asked for it, no one needs it, but the marketing of the autonomous car concept is pervasive and insistent.
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Andrew Pohlman » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:27 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:27 pm
Andrew Pohlman wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:16 pm
When you look at what is on the road being tested for approval right now, you realize that autonomous cars are already here. The engineering behind the scenes has yet to be honed to perfection [...]
Nope, autonomous cars are not already here and won't be any time soon. "The engineering behind the scenes has yet to be honed to perfection" - yes, in other words, not ready.

They have fundamental problems which cannot be solved easily. Autonomous cars will be a reality soon only if one redefines "autonomous" to its antonym.

The whole "autonomous cars" movement in North America is perplexing to me as it runs contrary to the deepest held cultural norms around cars and driving them (associated with self-reliance and independence). Basically no one asked for it, no one needs it, but the marketing of the autonomous car concept is pervasive and insistent.
Hiya Guitarista! I understand your perspective, but Uber is testing self driving cars in Arizona. They tested in San Francisco too but got revoked due to licensing reasons. Say what you want about complete readiness, but they are on the roads now. I'm sure a few web searches will show more tests in other countries too. They are certainly ready for more controlled environments - perhaps not ready for off road or combat zones. A self driving M1 Abrams ? :D

And if you read through the thread, many reasons why they are needed have been discussed. The elderly and the disabled are two big reasons. But if you hate the idea, don't buy one and vote against them. That is your right!
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:46 pm

Yes but you see again all of this is told as if the decision has been made and we have no choice--as if it's Technology that's making the decisions. Marx's notion of commodity fetishism applies perfectly here--Technology, a nameless faceless god without emotions rules our lives and is creating our world, it's claimed. We merely need to understand that technology is a human tool; we don't have to allow it to turn existence into soulless misery.

But we will.
Last edited by Jeffrey Armbruster on Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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guitarrista
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Re: driverless cars

Post by guitarrista » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:22 pm

Andrew Pohlman wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:27 pm
guitarrista wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:27 pm
Andrew Pohlman wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:16 pm
When you look at what is on the road being tested for approval right now, you realize that autonomous cars are already here. The engineering behind the scenes has yet to be honed to perfection [...]
Nope, autonomous cars are not already here and won't be any time soon. "The engineering behind the scenes has yet to be honed to perfection" - yes, in other words, not ready.

They have fundamental problems which cannot be solved easily. Autonomous cars will be a reality soon only if one redefines "autonomous" to its antonym.

The whole "autonomous cars" movement in North America is perplexing to me as it runs contrary to the deepest held cultural norms around cars and driving them (associated with self-reliance and independence). Basically no one asked for it, no one needs it, but the marketing of the autonomous car concept is pervasive and insistent.
Hiya Guitarista! I understand your perspective, but Uber is testing self driving cars in Arizona.
From the article you link to: "All trips will include two Uber engineers in the front seats as safety drivers, in the event a human needs to take over control from the vehicle’s software."

Like I said, they are autonomous only if that is redefined to mean its opposite.

I don't have strong feelings about this, but have been following the hype. It is still just hype. It doesn't matter if they can drive by themselves 95-99% of the time on roads with clear marking in perfect weather. They have to work without human input 100% of the time or they are useless.
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Pat Dodson » Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:16 pm

From the article that Andrew linked to:

“ And no, we humans will not adapt to all the possibilities that hit us faster and faster..” 8)

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Re: driverless cars

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:00 am

Pat Dodson wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:16 pm
From the article that Andrew linked to:

“ And no, we humans will not adapt to all the possibilities that hit us faster and faster..” 8)
And yet this is old news. Toffler, Future Shock.
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Pat Dodson » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:10 am

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:00 am
Pat Dodson wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:16 pm
From the article that Andrew linked to:

“ And no, we humans will not adapt to all the possibilities that hit us faster and faster..” 8)
And yet this is old news. Toffler, Future Shock.
Sure. I was also amused by the wording, used in the context of these safe, autonomous vehicles.

If insurers will price human drivers out of the market (logic I can’t quite follow if accidents will be so rare) then will pedestrians require insurance to pay for their own needs and the problems they cause? For in this new world must not accidents involving pedestrians usually be their fault?

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Re: driverless cars

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:35 am

Oh, sorry, I missed the joke! I'm slow...actually the fires up north and everything else (las vegas) have me in a dark mood.
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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:45 am

guitarrista wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Basically no one asked for it, no one needs it, but the marketing of the autonomous car concept is pervasive and insistent.

Yes. That was precisely what I had in mind when opening this thread. The question to my mind is, why?

Electric cars on the other hand can't happen fast enough IMO.

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Re: driverless cars

Post by Rasputin » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:36 am

Isn't it just because people have an appetite for technology which gives the tech giants a route into this highly lucrative market? They get to rewrite the rules to undermine established makers and hand themselves a huge advantage.

I think the zeitgeist is very much "more tech = better". I'm not sure there is all that much tension with independence and self-reliance - anyway, I think the current appetite for technology is more than enough to get past it.

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Re: driverless cars

Post by Michael.N. » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:38 am

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:45 am
guitarrista wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Basically no one asked for it, no one needs it, but the marketing of the autonomous car concept is pervasive and insistent.

Yes. That was precisely what I had in mind when opening this thread. The question to my mind is, why?

Electric cars on the other hand can't happen fast enough IMO.
We aren't there yet but there will come a tipping point, when driverless cars are proved to be more fuel efficient, safer and have less parking bumps and scratches. That will be the point at which insurance premiums reduce. We may also get the young (they are mostly young) nutters off the road. I see then all the time in the impoverished area that I live in. Driving at crazy speeds in heavy pedestrian areas.
There's not much call for driverless technology from the public but you probably could have said the same when radio, tv and the internet were in their very infancy.
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Pat Dodson » Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:23 pm

Car users will ask:
Do they save time?
Are they convenient and instantly available? For all journeys? From all starting points?
Are they safe(r)?
Are they affordable? Are they cheaper than alternatives?
Are they really autonomous or do I still need to focus as a back up driver?
Are they an enjoyable way to travel?
Do they promote my independence and autonomy?

The answers so far are rather uncertain. It might happen in a small way and be a real boon for some - but in a big way?....

By the way; what happened to the idea of drone deliveries?

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Michael.N.
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Re: driverless cars

Post by Michael.N. » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:23 pm

Errr. . . give it time. We are less than 90 years since the radio became ubiquitous in the home. Things are advancing.
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Re: driverless cars

Post by guitarrista » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:34 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 5:45 am
guitarrista wrote:
Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Basically no one asked for it, no one needs it, but the marketing of the autonomous car concept is pervasive and insistent.

Yes. That was precisely what I had in mind when opening this thread. The question to my mind is, why?
My working hypothesis is that a few big corporations decided it might be fun to not have to pay professional drivers drive trucks, taxis, etc, and got the ball rolling, including (and especially) the marketing. I guess they were confident (not unreasonably) that they will make people want the cars if they come up with the product.

But they did not appreciate the fundamental difficulties of accomplishing this. So now they are doodling on the margins trying to improve on a bad idea. Latest I've heard is the brilliant idea of having the car auto-call "home" - i.e. call a human in a call centre - to get help when it has difficulty in a situation. I am sure the pedestrian about to be hit will be in suspended animation while the human on the other end of the call consults about what to do. :wink:
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Re: driverless cars

Post by guitarrista » Tue Oct 17, 2017 4:38 pm

Pat Dodson wrote:
Tue Oct 17, 2017 2:23 pm
Car users will ask:
[...]
Are they really autonomous or do I still need to focus as a back up driver?
BTW this seems to be underappreciated, but there is no way to pay attention only when something is about to happen so you can take over. Therefore you need to pay attention all the time, therefore the "autonomous" car becomes little more than a novelty gimmick.
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