bilingual people on Delcamp.

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
dory
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by dory » Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:19 pm

I did not grow up bilingual. However, I lived in Norway for a year as a child. By the end people called me bilingual, but when I got home I had no chance to speak and lost all of it. I became fluent in Danish as a teen but lost that too, due to the lack of anyone to speak to. I started learning French at a young age and ended up living in France for a year. There was a time when people would mistake me for a native speaker until I made a grammatical error as I inevitably did. That actually made me a little tense in French because I was so focused on trying to speak well rather than being fun and engaging. My French is MUCH worse now due to lack of use, but I can actually be a nice person in French now. There is no longer any possibility that someone will mistake me for a native speaker now but that is liberating. For several years a large chunk of my life was in Spanish, as first I lived in Spain and then married a Spanish speaker. He prefers to speak English now and my Spanish is deteriorating but not as fast as my French. I don't know that there is a huge difference (except for the odd grammatical or pronunciation error) between people who grow up bilingual and people who spend their lives speaking two or more languages. I do know that with languages it is use it or lose it.
Dory

simonm
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by simonm » Thu Jun 01, 2017 6:48 pm

dory wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:19 pm
... I do know that with languages it is use it or lose it.
+1

It is incredibly easy to almost totally forget a language and almost as difficult as learning it the first time to get it back.

astra69
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by astra69 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:26 pm

Hotsoup wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:15 pm
I worked very hard on my accent too and got a lot of compliments--it's just something you have to learn young to be truly native. Still, a worthy endeavor and I don't regret it.
That's a fascinating subject. I tried to pick up American accent. And used some books, youtube videos, and American tutors helped me. It's difficult to for me to judge the results, but it was fun for me. And I started to realize the different dimentions of English. Not only vocabulary and grammar. For example, many learners think that if they pronounce single words perfectly it will make them sound like native speakers. But language 'melody', sentence intonation and linking words are probably the factors that betray non-natives.

astra69
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by astra69 » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:30 pm

dory wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 5:19 pm
My French is MUCH worse now due to lack of use, but I can actually be a nice person in French now. There is no longer any possibility that someone will mistake me for a native speaker now but that is liberating. For several years a large chunk of my life was in Spanish, as first I lived in Spain and then married a Spanish speaker. He prefers to speak English now and my Spanish is deteriorating but not as fast as my French.
I mentioned ''Speaky" and "Italky". You can try :D

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Hotsoup
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by Hotsoup » Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:47 pm

astra69 wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 7:26 pm
That's a fascinating subject. I tried to pick up American accent. And used some books, youtube videos, and American tutors helped me. It's difficult to for me to judge the results, but it was fun for me. And I started to realize the different dimentions of English. Not only vocabulary and grammar. For example, many learners think that if they pronounce single words perfectly it will make them sound like native speakers. But language 'melody', sentence intonation and linking words are probably the factors that betray non-natives.
I think immersion and having a malleable brain (like kids do) are the most important factors in achieving native-like fluency. Even on my best days speaking French, I always felt like I was impersonating a Frenchman. My thoughts still ran through some kind of internal translator, which was always tiresome, no matter how good my pronunciation was..

I tutored for a while down around Seattle and Redmond but couldn't make ends meet. Teaching full time intimidated me, especially since I knew my French was very imperfect. Translating work would have felt even more fraudulent.. I got into manufacturing jobs and have lost any fluency I once had. ::sad face:: I still enjoy French movies and TV from time to time though.

Katoflas
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by Katoflas » Thu Jun 01, 2017 9:30 pm

I believe it just take good material and good time on it.

dory
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by dory » Sat Jun 03, 2017 3:56 am

Kids learn well in immersion situations. When they learn languages as foreign languages they don't usually do as well as adults. I have taught Spanish to chikdren. They don't totally grasp that other languages are a way to communicate with other people and lesrn pretty slowly. Try going to a foreign language in the elementary school (FLES) class sometime. What you see may surprise you.
Dory

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:36 am

I was raised by an Italian father and English mother and I also went to school in both countries. Consequently I grew up bi-lingual. However, I haven't really had much occasion to speak Italian since my kids were born and I can vouch for the fact that it's definitely a case of use it or lose it when it comes to speaking. I can still speak Italian but not as fluently and idiomatically as I once could. I can read Spanish and French fairly well but am hopeless at speaking those beautiful languages.
The other benefit of speaking Italian, especially as it has such close connections to Latin, is that I can work out meanings and connections in English that I otherwise wouldn't have been able to.

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Hany Hayek
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by Hany Hayek » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:09 pm

I was raised by my Italian Grandma in Egypt. So I speak Italian and Egyptian Arabic as native languages. I got to perfect my Italian when I worked in Milan for a few months in 1995, back then they couldn't tell I wasn't Italian.
I studied French and English at school for 12 years, and for 4 years at the Faculty of tourism. I even spoke French at home.
French is my reading language. There was a time when I was a bookworm. I have the complete works of Voltaire, Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Victor Hugo in French. I got to work with a French boss for 6 years, so I got to learn even slang. I can camouflage my self as French.
English is my business language, I got to learn the American accent by watching American movies on TV. But I speak it with a sort of an accent, not Arabic though more Italian.
I studied Spanish for 4 years, but I never used it, so I can't actually speak it, but I would understand a full conversation in Spanish.
Now I am trying to learn Greek, since I hold the Greek nationality. I speak very basic Greek. But I do get around when I am in Athens Greece.
I can read all these languages. I can only write French, English, Arabic and Italian.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:18 pm

I use English everyday, talk, listen radio etc. and even wrote few songs on it :)
but ... I am suffering, because my Russian is so much superior ... I would never be able to express myself with such power as while using Russian... am I bilingual?
Maybe... I live mostly in French and English speaking country... I speak a little Spanish too, but ... I wrote a lot of Poetry in Russian and could put any kind of feelings and nuances in every word and every sound of it! English?
I am just using it as a tool... as hammer maybe? but not for doing precise and deep work which I am capable on Russian...
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at Spotify, iTunes, Apple Music, Amazon Prime etc. Thanks!

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Granary Guitars
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by Granary Guitars » Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:27 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:25 pm
zupfgeiger wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 8:38 am
Growing up bilingual is an absolute asset in a globalised world.
I would say it can be an asset in a world in the early stages of globalisation.

I know people who are Welsh/English bilingual. Speaking Welsh may be important to their sense of identity, but it has no real impact on their life chances.

In the later stages of globalisation, I don't see there being more than one language.
I'm bilingual in Welsh and English. Welsh is certainly important to my cultural identity. But you are wrong to say that being bilingual 'has no real impact on their life chances'. If you want to get a good job in Wales (certainly in the public sector) the abilty to speak Welsh is a distinct advantage and a pre-requisite for some positions.
Alun

Rasputin
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by Rasputin » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:41 pm

Granary Guitars wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:27 pm
Rasputin wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:25 pm
I know people who are Welsh/English bilingual. Speaking Welsh may be important to their sense of identity, but it has no real impact on their life chances.
I'm bilingual in Welsh and English. Welsh is certainly important to my cultural identity. But you are wrong to say that being bilingual 'has no real impact on their life chances'. If you want to get a good job in Wales (certainly in the public sector) the abilty to speak Welsh is a distinct advantage and a pre-requisite for some positions.
Alun
Hi Alun,

No offence was intended. The people I had in mind work in England in jobs where they don't use their Welsh, but maybe that means they are not very representative. I also have family who live in Wales but don't speak Welsh, and they still have what I would consider to be good jobs, one in the public sector. Maybe they would have even better jobs if they spoke Welsh, or maybe it depends whereabouts you are in Wales - I don't know. Anyway, I wouldn't want to argue about it.

Rasputin
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by Rasputin » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:42 pm

Hany Hayek wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:09 pm
I can only write French, English, Arabic and Italian.
That must be really embarrassing...

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Hany Hayek
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by Hany Hayek » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:17 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:42 pm
Hany Hayek wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 5:09 pm
I can only write French, English, Arabic and Italian.
That must be really embarrassing...
I didn't mean it to sound this way :oops:
But I'll tell you the languages I speak always never helped in my career, quite the contrary
What is embarrassing though is that I am Greek and I don't speak the language.

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Andrew Fryer
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Re: bilingual people on Delcamp.

Post by Andrew Fryer » Sat Jun 03, 2017 8:28 pm

There's still a big problem with definitions, hence my initial comment about the difference between reading and speaking.
And what is fluency anyway? I've read the complete works of Marqeuz in the original, twice, but on holiday in Spain I was told that my Spanish was very halting. My Italian is worse.
More than 30 years ago I could enjoy life in Swabia and be mistaken for Dutch. Now I have no idea how fluent my German is.
There's also a problem with the upper classes fancying themselves in Britain.
An upper class twit at work was once heard to shout "Hey folks, Russian is now my fifth language" after being taught that Da = yes and Nyet = No. He believed it. He was self-confident.
My fifth language is Italian. I've read Il Nome Della Rosa twice in it, but I don't speak it, so I shut up about it. Usually.
I've just signed up for a Latin-conversation/role-playing seminar. I've never written it nor spoken it. I'm terrified.
P.S. I'm drunk and I neither know nor care whether this is coherent or not.
1975 Calatayud y Gisbert, Yamaha CG131S.

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