Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Adrian Allan » Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:30 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:26 pm
Adrian Allan wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:06 pm
Yeah, but you know what I mean. don't you?
Yes :D .

I think, as someone mentioned, that jazz is the biggest sufferer in this respect. As the old saying goes - a rock guitarist plays three chords to a thousand people and a jazz guitarist plays a thousand chords to three people.
Status Quo immediately sprung to mind!
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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sat Jul 08, 2017 10:56 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:33 pm
A simple question, that probably needs no explaining.

What do you think?
posted by mistake
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:29 pm

I think that saxophone players are generally low paid. There is a local guy who has played on records by Ray Charles, Aretha Franklin, Kim Carnes...too many to list. And he drives a 500 dollar car, and had his two saxophones stolen from his car, and didn't have insurance. He never got the horns back, and couldn't afford to replace them as they were really high end from the 1920's. He is immensely talented, and a nice guy. In fact. I don't know of any musicians that make a really good living around my area. I have a friend who plays bass in the local Symphony and he has to teach to make ends meet. He has a modest home, and a 500 dollar car. It really amazes me how little music is valued, I mean classical and jazz. Pop garbage like Taylor Swift seems to sell well though.

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georgemarousi
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by georgemarousi » Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:06 am

You reminded me of the below anecdote:
" What is a Musician?
Someone that puts $5000 worth of gear into a $500 car
to drive 100 miles to play a gig for $50....... "

hahaha.. ehmm.. I really ( want to ) be a bit more optimistic about the prospected economics of being a musician .. well in case i ll ever be :D
--Classicals--
Paulino Bernabe Especial 2009
Ramirez 1A 1980
Alhambra Luthier india 2012
Juan Martinez nr 55 (the return @2014)
Yamaha cg 110 (as a kid @88)
--
student again since 2015, to my degree @..? - God bless!

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:36 am

Adrian Allan wrote:In the UK, bricklayers get substantially more income than somebody who is just a few steps away from being a concert artist; sad, but true.
Yes - but someone a few steps away from being a bricklayer is still not a bricklayer; you might conceivably hire that person to repair a garden wall (I wouldn't) but would you employ them to build your house?

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:42 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:36 am
Adrian Allan wrote:In the UK, bricklayers get substantially more income than somebody who is just a few steps away from being a concert artist; sad, but true.
Yes - but someone a few steps away from being a bricklayer is still not a bricklayer; you might conceivably hire that person to repair a garden wall (I wouldn't) but would you employ them to build your house?
No, but I imagine the person a few steps from being almost a concert artist could still put on an excellent recital, because the standards are so high today.

The point is that the bricklayer has learned his trade, but I think that the skill level and dedication in no way compares to the advanced musician.

However, in the UK at least, people are obsessed with "property" (which is itself a co-ordinated campaign to force us all into debt) and have very little knowledge of the arts. We have a skewed set of values, and wages reflect this.
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Non Tabius
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Non Tabius » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:20 am

I teach music of various genres.But I must say the cg keeps my confidence up as far as music, in general, is concerned.I am glad I took to the cg all those years back.I don't think I would have been able to do what I do now if I had just stuck with blues and rock, although I am very grateful for having walked those roads and being able to share that experience with the class.I'm thinking in terms of paid gigs like sessions, dances and all that stuff.Being a solo concert player is something else, but then those are so few and far between around these parts.The cg and its repertoire is by far my most effective research tool, in order to stay dynamic as a teacher.I speak for myself of course.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:51 am

Adrian Allan wrote:No, but I imagine the person a few steps from being almost a concert artist could still put on an excellent recital, because the standards are so high today.
How is someone capable of delivering an excellent recital not a concert artist except by choice? If they can deliver that excellent recital once they can do it any number of times - the only limitations I see are audience numbers and decent management.

Which is tied up with:
Adrian Allan wrote:However, in the UK at least, people are obsessed with "property" (which is itself a co-ordinated campaign to force us all into debt) and have very little knowledge of the arts. We have a skewed set of values, and wages reflect this.
I was being (partly) flippant of course re. the bricklayer.

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Adrian Allan
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:18 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:51 am
Adrian Allan wrote:No, but I imagine the person a few steps from being almost a concert artist could still put on an excellent recital, because the standards are so high today.
How is someone capable of delivering an excellent recital not a concert artist except by choice? If they can deliver that excellent recital once they can do it any number of times - the only limitations I see are audience numbers and decent management.
Because in a society indifferent to classical music, many of them decide to give up and focus on teaching instead of the odd gig every couple of months or so - there are just not enough opportunities.
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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:58 am

Adrian Allan wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:18 am
Because in a society indifferent to classical music, many of them decide to give up and focus on teaching instead of the odd gig every couple of months or so - there are just not enough opportunities.
I'm fairly sure that, outside of the guitar summer festival circuit (which is basically guitarists playing to guitarists), even the big name players don't do that many concerts per year.

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Andrew Fryer
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Andrew Fryer » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:39 am

Let me answer the question with a "yes" then qualify it - Devil's advocate can be played here to some extent.

Or perhaps it's better to answer the question by saying, you are begging the question by assuming there is something special about a musician's talent before you begin to answer it?

When you are 18 you either enter university or you enter music school. You slog for three years then graduate.
When you come out, if you went to music school, people simper, "ooh, they are soooo talented", and if you went to university they say, "meh, it's just a piece of paper: real life is the only thing that matters." Speaking as someone who could have gone either way (at 18 I had grade 8 on the piano and three A-levels), but chose university, I'm going to say, three years' slog is three years' slog, and I don't see any difference in the talents required for each course of study. Many graduate salaries are low.

That's probably the real question here, isn't it - how much talent do you really have?
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Adrian Allan
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:56 am

Andrew Fryer wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:39 am
Let me answer the question with a "yes" then qualify it - Devil's advocate can be played here to some extent.

Or perhaps it's better to answer the question by saying, you are begging the question by assuming there is something special about a musician's talent before you begin to answer it?

When you are 18 you either enter university or you enter music school. You slog for three years then graduate.
When you come out, if you went to music school, people simper, "ooh, they are soooo talented", and if you went to university they say, "meh, it's just a piece of paper: real life is the only thing that matters." Speaking as someone who could have gone either way (at 18 I had grade 8 on the piano and three A-levels), but chose university, I'm going to say, three years' slog is three years' slog, and I don't see any difference in the talents required for each course of study. Many graduate salaries are low.

That's probably the real question here, isn't it - how much talent do you really have?
I have a similar experience to you.

I have grade 8 and a performance diploma on guitar and also a 2.1 degree in history from a leading university.

Although the degree was quite hard, I still think that the skills set required to get to a concert standard on the guitar, (and I don't consider myself to be there yet, because there are so many great players) are higher.

Many of those who are better than me on the guitar will be only just scraping a living, doing the odd concert here and there and teaching in the day.
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ddray
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by ddray » Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:05 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:18 am

Because in a society indifferent to classical music, many of them decide to give up and focus on teaching instead of the odd gig every couple of months or so - there are just not enough opportunities.
Exactly and that's a more accurate description of the problem I mentioned. My calling it a "performer glut" is slighting in a way all those who've dedicated themselves and put in the hour after hour of practice to reach a virtuoso level. This should be and probably is a Golden Age of instrumental performance but unfortunately the audience attention span is about 3 seconds and only glitz and junk can get even those 3 seconds.

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:38 pm

ddray wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:05 pm
but unfortunately the audience attention span is about 3 seconds and only glitz and junk can get even those 3 seconds.
That does appear to be true. In my view it's a big problem for society as a whole. The inability to concentrate on anything for more than a few minutes (if you're lucky( doesn't bode well. The internet isn't helping.

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Andrew Fryer
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Re: Has classical music got the world's lowest talent-earnings ratio?

Post by Andrew Fryer » Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:11 pm

ddray wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:05 pm
Adrian Allan wrote:
Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:18 am

Because in a society indifferent to classical music, many of them decide to give up and focus on teaching instead of the odd gig every couple of months or so - there are just not enough opportunities.
Exactly and that's a more accurate description of the problem I mentioned. My calling it a "performer glut" is slighting in a way...
yes and no, because there is clearly also a fall in demand - theatres are closing. Partly it's the property boom that has also eliminated most of the independent cinemas (and seeing pubs and restaurants wiped out). But also philistine accountancy is applied more and more - there's at least one theatre now where they have an orchestra, but the string sections are played on a synthesiser.
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