EGTA

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
User avatar
Mark Clifton-Gaultier
Posts: 986
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: England

EGTA

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:14 pm

Anyone at this month's get together?

If so - did you try the Earl Marsh Staufer copies or hear Tom McKinney's lecture recital?

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 1814
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: EGTA

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:28 pm

Nope, unable to make it again this year. Didn't realise you are a member!
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

User avatar
Mark Clifton-Gaultier
Posts: 986
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: England

Re: EGTA

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:20 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:Nope, unable to make it again this year. Didn't realise you are a member!
Well Stephen - that's because I'm not. I was intending to join up and attend this year (and last) but I'm still undergoing treatment for the big C and circumstances just didn't work out well enough for me yet.

I have friends in the ranks though - one of whom mentioned the guitars and that Tom K had used one for some Dowland. He gave a positive report on one of the instruments - I just wondered if anyone else had an opinion as I'm in the market for a new build and haven't come across them before.

User avatar
pogmoor
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 8643
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2004 10:55 am
Location: Oxfordshire, UK

Re: EGTA

Post by pogmoor » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:59 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sat Jul 29, 2017 5:14 pm
...did you try the Earl Marsh Staufer copies...
I've heard several Earl Marsh guitars (though not Stauffer copies) and talked to him about guitar-making. I've been very impressed by what I have heard.
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Lester Backshall (2008) and Paul Fischer (1995)
Yamaha SLG 130NW silent classical guitar (2014)

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 1814
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: EGTA

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:53 pm

Understood.

I've seen one or two of Marsh's standard guitars, very fine.

I used my actual Staufer for Dowland a couple of times; the grain on the soundboard was so close packed, I calculated the spruce front was as old as the music.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

User avatar
Mark Clifton-Gaultier
Posts: 986
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: England

Re: EGTA

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Jul 29, 2017 11:34 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:I've seen one or two of Marsh's standard guitars, very fine.
pogmoor wrote:I've been very impressed by what I have heard.
Thanks both - that's three positive reviews from people whose opinions I respect - I shall have to follow this up.
The pricing seems very good - only £3500.

User avatar
James Lister
Moderator & Luthier
Moderator & Luthier
Posts: 7039
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:53 pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: EGTA

Post by James Lister » Sun Jul 30, 2017 10:22 am

Hi Mark,

I was there and played (and heard Tony Johnson play) one of Earl's Stauffer copies. I don't have much to compare it with really, having never made one, or played an original, but they worked well, and the workmanship is always excellent on Earl's guitars.

Missed Tom McKinney, but went to a very good talk by Christopher Page on "The Great Age of the Guitar in England".

James
James Lister, luthier, Sheffield UK

User avatar
Mark Clifton-Gaultier
Posts: 986
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: England

Re: EGTA

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:31 pm

James Lister wrote:I was there and played (and heard Tony Johnson play) one of Earl's Stauffer copies. I don't have much to compare it with really, having never made one, or played an original, but they worked well, and the workmanship is always excellent on Earl's guitars.
Thanks James.

Another luthier in my sights is Jan Tulacek - I've only played one of his replicas though. It was bright and clear, well balanced throughout its range and with a startlingly huge presence. I don't suppose any of you have experience of his guitars?

What I'm wondering about mostly is how much some of the replicas move towards a modern sound; it's been a while since I had my hands on a genuine Stauffer so that I can't fully recall its voice but I believe it to have been much "gentler" in overall character.

Obviously some of that characteristic sound must be due to the well used top - I just don't know how much faster and brighter it may have been when it first realised it was part of a guitar.

User avatar
James Lister
Moderator & Luthier
Moderator & Luthier
Posts: 7039
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:53 pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: EGTA

Post by James Lister » Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:21 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sun Jul 30, 2017 3:31 pm
Obviously some of that characteristic sound must be due to the well used top - I just don't know how much faster and brighter it may have been when it first realised it was part of a guitar.
Not heard of Jan Tulacek I'm afraid. You're probably right that an original Stauffer would have mellowed a bit over the years, but I would expect any small-bodied, ladder-braced guitar to be quite fast and direct. I heard Earl's Stauffer next to an original Panormo - the Stauffer was more impressive really, with better volume and projection, but the Panormo had a gentler more intimate tone. Partly due to age perhaps, but also the combination of the small body with the fan bracing.

James
James Lister, luthier, Sheffield UK

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 1814
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: EGTA

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:38 am

James Lister wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:21 am
... I heard Earl's Stauffer next to an original Panormo - the Stauffer was more impressive really, with better volume and projection, but the Panormo had a gentler more intimate tone. Partly due to age perhaps, but also the combination of the small body with the fan bracing.
That's interesting because its more or less the reverse of how I'd characterise the difference between the Staufer I owned and the Panormo for which it was part exchanged. I'd suspect it may be also due to the wider differences in quality that may have existed in the Panormo production compared to Staufer. But while my Staufer (there was only one 'f' on the label) was very bright and full of character and projection ... https://youtu.be/AHElcPwp5W0
the Panormo is actually quite a modern sound, gentler in being more rounded perhaps but also loud and rich. I think the Staufer had slightly air space in the body compared to the Panormo. Sorry I've not recorded the latter yet.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

User avatar
Michael.N.
Posts: 6387
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 am
Location: UK

Re: EGTA

Post by Michael.N. » Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:52 am

The two are radically different. The Panormo lies somewhere between a modern classical and a typical N. European romantic guitar in it's tonality. You would expect that, given that it's fan braced and has a thin soundboard (assuming it's the fan braced Panormo model). The Stauffer has a heavier soundboard with pretty chunky ladder bracing, it's a brighter more direct sound (if direct is the correct word). I just wonder if it's the brighter tonality that gives the impression of it having more volume.
I haven't measured it but I think the Panormo has the larger air space, perhaps by a good margin. The side depth on a Panormo is comparable to that of a modern classical. It might depend on the particular Stauffer model. I'm referring to the one with the short scale length.
Historicalguitars.

User avatar
James Lister
Moderator & Luthier
Moderator & Luthier
Posts: 7039
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2006 3:53 pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: EGTA

Post by James Lister » Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:42 am

Michael.N. wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 9:52 am
(assuming it's the fan braced Panormo model)
Yes, it was.

The Panormo certainly has a much deeper body than the Staufer - maybe 50% deeper? The tonal quality of the Staufer may have given an impression of greater volume, but there was no doubt that that particular Staufer copy was louder than that particular Panormo. My memory is that the Panormo I made had better volume than that original, but I don't have enough experience of them to know which was closer to "typical".

James
James Lister, luthier, Sheffield UK

User avatar
Michael.N.
Posts: 6387
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 am
Location: UK

Re: EGTA

Post by Michael.N. » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:06 pm

Stauffer is 84.5 mm's at the bottom block according to the plan that I have. Panormo is more like 95 mm's.
I have made a couple of Stauffers but I've never had one at the same time as a Panormo model. It would just be a wild guess trying to gauge their volume.
TBH the Stauffer isn't my favourite model but I can understand why some people take to them. They are different enough from the other ladder braced French romantic guitars to have their own unique sound. They have their unique aesthetics too.
Historicalguitars.

User avatar
Mark Clifton-Gaultier
Posts: 986
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:03 pm
Location: England

Re: EGTA

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:34 pm

Thanks everyone - your various observations are really valuable. It would seem that what I took to be (possibly) a characteristic of the modern build might well be particular to the design itself.

Originally I associated that Stauffer presence with some of the more florid Giuliani, and the agile facility of Legnani's caprices which I felt came off particularly well (even on the original as far as I can remeber). Maybe that's the case - composers inevitably influenced by the instruments around them.

It seems that experience is the teacher here and that before choosing the new build I need to try out a few more guitars - I've played loads of original Panormo but only a few Pons, Stauffer, Lacote etc. and never a Rada ...

... one of each is starting to seem more and more reasonable.

User avatar
Michael.N.
Posts: 6387
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:28 am
Location: UK

Re: EGTA

Post by Michael.N. » Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:02 pm

Lacote's (at least early type) are very similar to Pons. Again not surprising since Lacote supposedly learned his craft in the Pons workshop.
I'd put them in three broad categories: Lacote/Pons (French school), Stauffer (Viennese) and the Spanish influenced Panormo's. I'd also throw in the very small Torres, which essentially sounds like a romantic guitar, a touch brighter, perhaps not quite as rounded or as mellow as the Panormo. There are very good reasons why they all fall into a certain tonal type. It's obvious that soundboard aggregate, soundboard thickness and bracing type all has it's effects.
Historicalguitars.

Return to “The Café”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 60moo, Cass Couvelas, ChristianSchwengeler, CommonCrawl [Bot], david365, Guitar Nut, Michael.N., slidika and 12 guests