English language peeves

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
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Andrew Fryer
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Re: English language peeves

Post by Andrew Fryer » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:47 am

I mean one of these:
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andreas777
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Re: English language peeves

Post by andreas777 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:28 am

woodenhand wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:00 am
The word "issue" is now so popular that people are desperate to use it, and so it means just about anything people want it to mean....
I work for a big US company, and it's an unwritten law that you never ever report 'problems', especially in conference calls with top level management. If you have a small problem then you report an 'issue', and if you have a big problem then you report a 'challenge' :?
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Rasputin
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Re: English language peeves

Post by Rasputin » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:13 am

hpaulj wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:35 am
woodenhand wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:03 am
...Why is it now inadmissible to use ordinary words like "small," "medium," "large," and "extra large"?...
Why don't we use (t,i,m,r,p) for right hand fingering? Why not slow, walking, soft, loud, etc. If music can borrow from Italian, why can't coffee marketing? Espresso, cappuccino, macchiato, etc,
Well, one reason would be that English already has words for small medium and large, whereas it didn't already have words for espresso, or a guitaristic way of labelling the fingers. There's no comparison with espresso (I'm all in favour of espresso!).

Although I agree with what Lagartija is saying about portion sizes, my orignal peeve was that grande means large but Starbucks have the arrogance to redefine it as meaning medium. I would be almost as peeved if they had redefined it as meaning extra large.
wchymeus wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:32 am
Andrew Fryer wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:53 am
Recently all I have at Starbucks is a flat white (and a pain aux raisins, warmed up).
you mean a Danish roll?
We don't really say that in the UK. We sometimes say Danish pastry but that can also mean other things, and the little parcel of deliciousness photographed by AF is generally labelled pain aux raisins in coffee shops (sometimes pain au raisin...).
I'd rather get a "plain butter croissant" why would you not simply say: "croissant"... nope, it has to be plain and buttery... ah yeah, because the only alternative is an almond croissant... wait wait, so "croissant" would be ambiguous, really? [and please, pronounce it the right way: crescent not croissant)
Same. They talk as though the butter is a filling like the almond paste or the jam or whatever it may be. They're all butter croissants! I say plain croissant. I don't say crescent though. I don't know if we get the word crescent from French or whether both languages get it from (presumably) Latin, but you can see where it has come from much more easily in French.

I was intially dismayed that UK coffee shops would only do flat white in one size, then I discovered that when you get a large one outside the UK, it's the same as an extra shot latte.
Last edited by Rasputin on Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: English language peeves

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:21 am

Rasputin wrote:I think the right approach to foreign names of many foody things is to pronounce them using the nearest English sounds without putting on a silly accent - so a pain au raisin is a pan oh rayzan ... but if you say that in a coffee shop, the server will look at you quizzically and say "pan oh raisin?", as though the last word was English.
I suppose that there's a certain convenience in this approach ... but then why not just ask for, "one of those dried fruit pastries"? I simply refuse to say "lartay" and will happily correct anyone that offers to serve me one. Baristas (ha!), in any case, know next to nothing about coffee.

What do we order in an Italian restaurant? Pasta or "parzder"? I hate that one.

To the dismay of my wife I go the whole hog - pronounce whatever it is as nearly correctly as I know how - and if I'm stuck ask someone that knows better.

Composers' names anyone? Tárrega or Tuhrayger?

Dowland is more or less a lost cause but I will still fly the flag.

I mentioned poor old "Surge" Gainsbourgh before - how about Aytor Veeyayobboss?

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: English language peeves

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:26 am

Rasputin wrote:Same. They talk as though the butter is a filling like the almond paste or the jam or whatever it may be. They're all butter croissants! I say plain croissant.
The croissant has had to be redefined due to the proliferation of mass-produced cheap versions which contain little or no butter.

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Re: English language peeves

Post by Rasputin » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:42 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:21 am
Rasputin wrote:I think the right approach to foreign names of many foody things is to pronounce them using the nearest English sounds without putting on a silly accent - so a pain au raisin is a pan oh rayzan ... but if you say that in a coffee shop, the server will look at you quizzically and say "pan oh raisin?", as though the last word was English.
I suppose that there's a certain convenience in this approach ... but then why not just ask for, "one of those dried fruit pastries"?
I think it is better to use some version of the name used by the coffee shop, especially as most servers are not native English speakers. Also, I don't like to give the impression that I am avoiding the foreign term because I am not sure how to say it. In any case, there may be more than one type of dried fruit pastry.
To the dismay of my wife I go the whole hog - pronounce whatever it is as nearly correctly as I know how - and if I'm stuck ask someone that knows better.
:lol:
Dowland is more or less a lost cause but I will still fly the flag.
How would Dowland's name have been pronounced back in the day then?

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cefyn
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Re: English language peeves

Post by cefyn » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:38 am

andreas777 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:28 am
woodenhand wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:00 am
The word "issue" is now so popular that people are desperate to use it, and so it means just about anything people want it to mean....
I work for a big US company, and it's an unwritten law that you never ever report 'problems', especially in conference calls with top level management. If you have a small problem then you report an 'issue', and if you have a big problem then you report a 'challenge' :?
Don't forget, you have to say 'Lessons have been learned' after you identify a challenge - presumably as a result of 'Blue Sky Thinking' :D

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PeteJ
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Re: English language peeves

Post by PeteJ » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:43 pm

I'd be happy if my spell-checker spoke the English language. It forever tries to change 's' to 'z', for example, and seems not have read a decent dictionary.

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Re: English language peeves

Post by Rasputin » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:49 pm

Ah there's another peef of mine... not you PeteJ, but the view that the -ize spelling is an Americanism. It's about as English as roast venison in Sherwood forest.

It would be better if spellcheckers gave you the option though and then held you to it. I know I use both -ize and -ise depending on how I happen to feel that day. There are a few words which have more than one acceptable spelling but it's probably still better to be consistent.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: English language peeves

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:59 pm

Rasputin wrote:How would Dowland's name have been pronounced back in the day then?
The "dow" part would have sounded nearer to hoe (garden tool) than how (question), the final d almost silent.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: English language peeves

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:13 pm

Rasputin wrote:I think it is better to use some version of the name used by the coffee shop, especially as most servers are not native English speakers.
I hadn't picked up on the nationalties of the staff as I stopped frequenting coffee shops quite some time ago on the grounds (ha ha) that they don't sell coffee. Is it really so common to be served by a foreigner?
Rasputin wrote:In any case, there may be more than one type of dried fruit pastry.
Ah yes ... but then I'm (very nearly) an English man i.e. expert in shouting and pointing.

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Re: English language peeves

Post by Rasputin » Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:12 pm

Fair enough! Yes, I can't say I've done a proper survey, but I honestly think less than than half of servers (hold on, should that be fewer than?) are native speakers - at least in London and Manchester.

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pogmoor
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Re: English language peeves

Post by pogmoor » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:58 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:59 pm
Rasputin wrote:How would Dowland's name have been pronounced back in the day then?
The "dow" part would have sounded nearer to hoe (garden tool) than how (question), the final d almost silent.
As illustrated by the title of his piece Semper Dowland, Semper Dolens which would have been a (near) rhyme.
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woodenhand
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Re: English language peeves

Post by woodenhand » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:55 am

andreas777 wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:28 am
woodenhand wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:00 am
The word "issue" is now so popular that people are desperate to use it, and so it means just about anything people want it to mean....
I work for a big US company, and it's an unwritten law that you never ever report 'problems', especially in conference calls with top level management. If you have a small problem then you report an 'issue', and if you have a big problem then you report a 'challenge' :?
Yes, obfuscate. That reminds me: An acquaintance who works for a software developer told me that in their business "bugs" are to be called "issues."

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PaulHardy
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Re: English language peeves

Post by PaulHardy » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:04 am

"-ough"
I mean this:

Bough
Cough
Dough
Tough

Where's the sense in that? And there's more- how about this?

Though
Thought
Through

I mean for goodness' sake!

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