Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
Rognvald
Posts: 107
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 am

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:47 pm

To posit that high IQ has a relative relationship to talent, success, etc. is a given. However, IQ variants take many shapes and forms: a skilled wooden boat builder and cabinetmaker, an Astro-physicist, a visual artist, a professional Classical or Jazz musician, and yes, even professional athletes. IQ is a very deceptive notion and to assume that a high IQ will give you the opportunities of Dr. Faust after his pact with the devil is patently absurd. However, it will give you better than average success in those endeavors you seriously pursue in life. So, if you combine high IQ with a strong genetic component for music(Mozart, Bach, Beethoven, Wagner, etc.) your chances to excel are better than the average person. But, it is my opinion that many people place an undue importance to IQ scores and high IQ is no ticket to success in life--whether it be material or through one's accomplishments. Realities such as drive, determination, fearlessness, ability to overcome disastrous odds and WILL, as is so graciously and eloquently described by the great German philosopher Schopenhauer, are far more important. IQ and guitar playing? Don't give it too much thought . . . the practice chair is awaiting your arrival. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Rasputin
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rasputin » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:13 pm

chiral3 wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:52 pm
chart.jpeg

http://tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations
Excellent! My favourite was:

Per capita cheese consumption correlates with number of people who died by becoming tangled in their bedsheets. Correlation: 94.71%

gitgeezer
Posts: 2244
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:09 pm
Location: Southeastern U.S.

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by gitgeezer » Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:38 pm

In inner residential neighborhoods of American cities, pavement thickness of a street correlates with the number of children living along that street.

Pat Dodson
Posts: 2896
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:32 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Pat Dodson » Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:56 am

This is a rather complex, fraught topic. Much of the research is of poor design and of doubtful validity. @gitgeezer's and @Rasputin's posts also amusingly highlight the problems of correlational evidence. Even very high correlations, and those for this topic are generally low, don't provide good predictive value for individuals as opposed to large populations.

There have also been claims that physical exercise or dance for example seem to boost IQ (whatever that measures) and of course deep study of many subjects hones critical analytical and reasoning skills. And supportive parents and high amounts of good tuition might be other factors?

I don't know of any studies that have focussed on guitarists; the majority have looked at general populations of children or students or at those at music schools or conservatories, whether across all instruments or focussed on pianists or violinists.

The best review of this area is perhaps that of Schellennberg and Weiss (2013)
http://www.utm.utoronto.ca/~w3psygs/FIL ... issPoM.pdf

It is not an easy read perhaps but it covers the ground very well. Here is the final paragraph from its conclusion section:

"Music training is associated with enhanced performance on a wide variety of listening tasks, musical or otherwise. Music training in childhood also tends to be a predictor of good performance across a wide variety of cognitive tests, including tests of memory, language, and visuospatial abilities. Music training is also associated positively with general intelligence and school performance. By contrast, comparisons of adult musicians and nonmusicians often yield null findings when the outcome measures do not involve music or listening. Regardless, the correlational and quasi-experimental designs that typify the vast majority of the available research preclude clear inferences of causation whatever the outcome variable. The available evidence suggests that high-functioning children (i.e., higher IQ, better performance in school) are more likely than other children to take music lessons and to perform well on a variety of tests of cognitive ability, and that music lessons exaggerate these individual differences slightly. Cognitive advantages for individuals who become musicians in adulthood are less consistent except on listening tasks."

Laudiesdad69
Posts: 1076
Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:16 pm

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:39 pm

Pat Dodson wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:56 am
This is a rather complex, fraught topic. Much of the research is of poor design and of doubtful validity. @gitgeezer's and @Rasputin's posts also amusingly highlight the problems of correlational evidence. Even very high correlations, and those for this topic are generally low, don't provide good predictive value for individuals as opposed to large populations.

There have also been claims that physical exercise or dance for example seem to boost IQ (whatever that measures) and of course deep study of many subjects hones critical analytical and reasoning skills. And supportive parents and high amounts of good tuition might be other factors?

I don't know of any studies that have focussed on guitarists; the majority have looked at general populations of children or students or at those at music schools or conservatories, whether across all instruments or focussed on pianists or violinists.

The best review of this area is perhaps that of Schellennberg and Weiss (2013)
http://www.utm.utoronto.ca/~w3psygs/FIL ... issPoM.pdf

It is not an easy read perhaps but it covers the ground very well. Here is the final paragraph from its conclusion section:

"Music training is associated with enhanced performance on a wide variety of listening tasks, musical or otherwise. Music training in childhood also tends to be a predictor of good performance across a wide variety of cognitive tests, including tests of memory, language, and visuospatial abilities. Music training is also associated positively with general intelligence and school performance. By contrast, comparisons of adult musicians and nonmusicians often yield null findings when the outcome measures do not involve music or listening. Regardless, the correlational and quasi-experimental designs that typify the vast majority of the available research preclude clear inferences of causation whatever the outcome variable. The available evidence suggests that high-functioning children (i.e., higher IQ, better performance in school) are more likely than other children to take music lessons and to perform well on a variety of tests of cognitive ability, and that music lessons exaggerate these individual differences slightly. Cognitive advantages for individuals who become musicians in adulthood are less consistent except on listening tasks."
Thanks Pat, the article that you linked was very much appreciated. I haven't finished it yet, but will over the next couple of days. What I found interesting is that musical aptitude correlates to language ability, according to the article. :merci:

Pat Dodson
Posts: 2896
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:32 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Pat Dodson » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:55 pm

Hi @Laudiesdad69

Yes musical aptitude correlates with language ability in some research. But, again, the correlation isn't absolute and there are, for example, instances of autistic savants with remarkable musical skills whose language skills are really weak.

There could of course be mediating factors influencing both; supportive parents of children learning music also doing well at fostering their child's language development for example. Or it could be a real causative connection. I think it's hard to know from the evidence and perhaps impossible to control for. So you pays yer money and makes yer choice. :D

Glad the article is helpful.

Pat

User avatar
zupfgeiger
Posts: 1776
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 12:12 pm
Location: Wezembeek-Oppem, Belgium

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by zupfgeiger » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:13 pm

Guys, are you really serious about this topic? I thought the assumption that classical guitarists were a group of elite minded nerds living in a world apart was a prejudice.
The secret of getting ahead is getting started (Mark Twain)

Tobias Braun, Santos copy, spruce/yew, 2017
Andrea Tacchi, Enrique Garcia model, Spruce/BRAZ, 2016
Giovanni Tacchi, Daniel Friederich copy, cedar/EIR, 2017
Alain Raifort, cedar/EIR, 2004

User avatar
Andrew Fryer
Posts: 2392
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:13 pm
Location: London SE5

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Andrew Fryer » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:16 pm

Here's what a raspberry looks like in slow-mo (it's not a response to Zupfgeiger):

Image
1975 Calatayud y Gisbert, Yamaha CG131S.

Pat Dodson
Posts: 2896
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:32 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Pat Dodson » Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:19 pm

Andrew Fryer wrote:
Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:16 pm
Here's what a raspberry looks like in slow-mo: Image
:lol: :lol:

The concepts of intelligence are always contentious and since the 70s I've blown many raspberries myself.

Whether it might enhance some cognitive skills, intelligence or IQ is also contentious but I think many of us do feel that learning a musical instrument is a valuable activity for many reasons that go beyond the immediate skills learned.

In a remarkable coincidence my wife, who does voluntary work in a secondary school, has just told me she has been asked to support a young person whose academic results are very weak but who has been allowed to enter the sixth form because he is an astonishingly able string player who plays in a prestigious orchestra and is headed for a conservatoire though his academic weaknesses could make admission there more problematic. Pick the bones from that. :D

PeteJ
Posts: 540
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:52 pm

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by PeteJ » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:32 pm

Perhaps the guy is so intelligent he realises the triviality of what he's being taught or is just lazy. There's no way to pick apart these things without in-depth analysis of the situation. My two achievements at school were a healthy IQ rating and a complete absence of academic achievement, and I suspect these two are often correlated.

Pat Dodson
Posts: 2896
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:32 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Pat Dodson » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:01 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:32 pm
Perhaps the guy is so intelligent he realises the triviality of what he's being taught or is just lazy. There's no way to pick apart these things without in-depth analysis of the situation. My two achievements at school were a healthy IQ rating and a complete absence of academic achievement, and I suspect these two are often correlated.
Absolutely!

As a teacher and psychologist I met many bright young people with poor academic achievement from many different causes. It's another reason to be very careful about not jumping to the wrong conclusion about the meaning of correlations.

Musical skills correlate positively with language skills. Language skills correlate positively with IQ and academic attainment. Has some predictive probability value across large groups but doesn't tell you anything in an individual case.

Attempting to escape from a prisoner of war camp was highly correlated with subsequent severe punishment. But a few individuals got away successfully.

Rasputin
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rasputin » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:13 pm

I would suggest that some cognitive tools are multi-purpose and some are highly specialised. If you have a good set of multi-purpose tools you are likely to be pretty good at many things, but not necessarily superb at any one thing. If you have the right set of highly specialised tools, you may be superb at a particular activity - playing a string instrument, say - but not much cop at anything else. Conversely, given an individual who is superb at a particular activity, it may be more plausible that they have just the right set of highly specialised tools than that they have an excellent set of multi-purpose tools - in which case you might expect them to have a fairly underwhelming IQ.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat. At some point I think someone told me there was a correlation between musical aptitude and language aptitude, and also between musical aptitude and mathematical aptitude... but I would be surprised if there was much of a correlation between language aptitude and mathematical aptitude. Possibly music can be handled either by the cognitive infrastructure that subserves language, or by the cognitive infrastructure that subserves maths. If so, it is interesting to wonder whether people who are using the language infrastructure experience music differently, or have different tastes, from the people who are using the maths infrastructure.

Now there's a house of cards...

Pat Dodson
Posts: 2896
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2014 11:32 am
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Pat Dodson » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:55 pm

@Rasputin
"Now there's a house of cards..."

Indeed!

When at university in the 70s I hitch-hiked home every fortnight or so (whatever happened to hitch-hiking?) After several awkward debates with drivers about aspects of psychology I decided to say I was studying mathematics. Journeys were then much more enjoyable. :D

UKsteve
Posts: 590
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:48 pm
Location: St Albans, UK

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by UKsteve » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:02 pm

simonm wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:30 am
IQ tests basically show how good you are at doing IQ tests.
Bit of a gross oversimplification there, often touted around by people who are not very good at IQ tests (broad brush generalisation there!).

It's well-established that performance improves with some practice, as the participant becomes familiar with the type of domain investigated (e.g. verbal reasoning, maths, etc.) and the way in which the question is asked. However, saturation occurs beyond a certain amount of practice.

The score then becomes a function of how often the participants gets the answer right and the speed with which they do so (given that the tests are time-limited). People with high IQ get the right answer, and they get it quick.

Rasputin
Posts: 352
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 12:25 pm

Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rasputin » Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:51 pm

Pat Dodson wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:55 pm
When at university in the 70s I hitch-hiked home every fortnight or so (whatever happened to hitch-hiking?) After several awkward debates with drivers about aspects of psychology I decided to say I was studying mathematics. Journeys were then much more enjoyable. :D
I've certainly come across people who are nervous around psychologists because they are worried they'll read their deepest darkest secrets in the way they pour the wine or the colour of their shoes. In the nicest possible way, I think they are overestimating psychology...
UKsteve wrote:
Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:02 pm
simonm wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:30 am
IQ tests basically show how good you are at doing IQ tests.
Bit of a gross oversimplification there, often touted around by people who are not very good at IQ tests (broad brush generalisation there!).

It's well-established that performance improves with some practice, as the participant becomes familiar with the type of domain investigated (e.g. verbal reasoning, maths, etc.) and the way in which the question is asked. However, saturation occurs beyond a certain amount of practice.

The score then becomes a function of how often the participants gets the answer right and the speed with which they do so (given that the tests are time-limited). People with high IQ get the right answer, and they get it quick.
OK, but that doesn't disprove what simonm said. IQ tests measure IQ, and IQ is whatever is measured by IQ tests. This is true by definition - it doesn't mean that IQ tests are a valid measure of general intelligence, or even that there is such a thing as general intelligence.

Return to “The Café”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ChristianSchwengeler, CommonCrawl [Bot], JohnW400, Tubbers and 22 guests