Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
Rognvald
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:23 am

"OK, but that doesn't disprove what simonm said. IQ tests measure IQ, and IQ is whatever is measured by IQ tests. This is true by definition - it doesn't mean that IQ tests are a valid measure of general intelligence, or even that there is such a thing as general intelligence." Rasputin


Rasputin,
This is patently false. IQ tests were the first breakthrough in WWI to quickly classify incoming US recruits for leadership and general army positions. It was developed by French psychologist Alfred Binet and the specific test was created by Robert Yerkes for US "Army Alpha" and served to quickly and fairly determine competence potentials in selecting men for the ranks. It also was used successfully in England and France in WWII to select the best possible recruits for command positions based on native intelligence rather than their inherited social position in society as was the case in WWI which proved to be a grave failure in competence among officers. The tests were very successful at determining ability and competence and are still used today. In 1994, Harvard Sociologists, Herrnstein, and Murray wrote the "Bell Curve,"--a twenty-year study on IQ and success and found, not surprisingly, that there is a direct correlation between success and measurable IQ and that IQ is established at birth and is stable and immutable. Sadly, in today's Techno-Pop New Age miasma of thinking, it is being questioned largely because it is seen as politically incorrect to believe there is a well-defined order of intelligence among human beings and that we are all the same at birth and that it is only opportunity that separates us. We are all part of the natural world and are governed by the immutable laws of evolution which clearly show variation within and without a species. This is Science. . . any deviation from this scientifically provable fact should be discussed seriously with your local gypsy fortune teller . . . payable in advance, of course. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:19 am

"We are all part of the natural world and are governed by the immutable laws of evolution which clearly show variation within and without a species. This is Science. . . any deviation from this scientifically provable fact should be discussed seriously with your local gypsy fortune teller . . . payable in advance, of course. Playing again . . . Rognvald"

Oh for heaven's sake.

Rognvald thinks that he's a genetic robot. And it's an immutable law of science fiction that robots will go bad and attempt to take over the world. Rognvald, free will is a gypsy myth, according to you; you have no choice: go forward and bring glory to your kind! There is no deviation from Science, that's never wrong; march, march lock step and trample underfoot the limber spines of the yogis and the kind hearts of the prayerful. Rid the world of dance and mystery. Make Lord Science prevail!

Me, I'm with the gypsies.
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
Takamine C132S

Rasputin
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rasputin » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:54 am

Rognvald wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:23 am
"OK, but that doesn't disprove what simonm said. IQ tests measure IQ, and IQ is whatever is measured by IQ tests. This is true by definition - it doesn't mean that IQ tests are a valid measure of general intelligence, or even that there is such a thing as general intelligence." Rasputin

Rasputin,
This is patently false IQ tests were the first breakthrough in WWI to quickly classify incoming US recruits for leadership and general army positions. It was developed by French psychologist Alfred Binet and the specific test was created by Robert Yerkes for US "Army Alpha" and served to quickly and fairly determine competence potentials in selecting men for the ranks...
What I was pointing out was that it doesn't follow from what UKsteve said (which was that scores improve up to a point but then stablise, and that people with high IQs do well on IQ tests) that the tests measure anything other than IQ. It doesn't, which is why you have to put forward other evidence to support your view that they are a useful measure of other aptitudes. I am not closed to the idea that they may be, but it is absolutely in the spirit of the scientific method you describe to call out dodgy reasoning.

Edited: I had attributed UKsteve's post to someone else.

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Tom Poore
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Tom Poore » Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:57 am

A group of viola players are suffering in hell. They notice a brass player lounging comfortably in a cooler spot. This puzzles them. Why is a brass player in a cooler spot? So they select one viola player to go over and question the brass player.

“Hey, why are you in a cooler spot?” the violist asks the brass player.

“Brass players are smarter than violists,” replies the brass player.

“Bull!” exclaims the violist.

“I’ll prove it,” says the brass player. He holds up his hand. “Hit my hand.”

“Why?” asks the violist.

“To prove you’re dumber than brass players.”

This insults the violist, and he takes a roundhouse swing at the brass player’s hand. Moving deftly, the brass player pulls his hand out of the way, and the violist’s fist smashes into the rock wall behind the brass player.

“Ow!” cries the violist in pain.

“Satisfied?” asks the brass player with a smug smile.

The violist shrugs meekly and shuffles back to the other violists.

“What did he say?” ask the other violists.

“Brass players are smarter than violists,” replies the violist.

“Bull!” retort the others.

“No, I’ll prove it!” The violist holds his hand in front of his face and says: “hit my hand.”

Tom Poore
South Euclid, OH
USA

Rognvald
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rognvald » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:19 am

"Rognvald, free will is a gypsy myth, according to you; you have no choice." Jeff Armbruster


Jeff,
I tried to salvage something in your last post (above remark) that had some semblance of Reason and not emotionally charged mumble-jumble. So, I never said Free Will is a gypsy myth(I guess you missed the obvious gypsy humor), in fact, I never even mentioned Free Will. However, since you mentioned it, Free Will has nothing to do with IQ and as a philosophical concept is absurd. As Science continues to decode the human genome and detail the incredible complexity of one's genetic makeup through DNA, we are discovering now that DNA is not only responsible for height, skin color, IQ, athletic abilities, etc., but determines whether one is meek, bold, adventurous or, potentially, a couch potato. The brilliant German philosopher, Arthur Schopenhauer, wrote one of the classics of world philosophy in the 19th Century "The World as Will and Representation" which detailed before the incredible discoveries of Science in human genetics the concept that nature/will are the driving force of one's life and for each human being, it is different. But Free Will, per se(a completely different concept/idea), is not philosophically valid since there are always external factors and constraints that are beyond our control which ultimately negate "Free Will" but might aptly be described simply as choice. So, without delving into a philosophical treatise far beyond the goals and intent of this forum, I will simply say you may accept Science--that IQ is valid and measurable or reject it. It's your life and your "choice" . . . Playing again . . . Rognvald P.S. Jeff, here's a philosophical question: A man sailing to Plymouth England from New York City hits a whale with his boat in the middle of the Atlantic(1500 miles from both England and America) and is sinking in shark infested waters. He has two choices: sink with the ship or try to swim to shore. Describe in 30 words or less his "Free Will."
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:41 am

Rognvald, the mapping of the human genome completely debunked the idea of genetic determinism. Before this occurred, there appeared a number of books written by scientists who with immutable logic showed that parenting had nothing to do with how a child would turn out. According to them, nurture was a gypsy myth, and genes all determining. You could be as cold and unloving as you like to your child, even brutal, it would have no effect. I suppose only scientists, who think parental love is mere emotional mumble jumble, could believe this. And yet these notions briefly became respectable--such is the power of Science, as you insist on capitalizing it. Then, it all had to be taken back. Immutable science was just....mutable after all.

Murray's Bell Curve is insulting and has been debunked too.

By the way Nietszche would completely reject the modern thrall to science. Not science itself, but the way people aspire to live 'scientifically rational lives'.
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
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Pat Dodson
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Pat Dodson » Fri Sep 08, 2017 12:04 pm

Similar arguments have been played out in books and papers for decades.

When I became an educational psychologist in 1980 the IQ test was a powerful, blunt instrument in the profession's toolbox and its administration was a closely guarded rite. It served as a key to the gate to special schooling and some colleagues and head teachers, aware of how time of day, setting, choice of subtest, presentation order and administrator rapport could affect results, used to game the system.

I saw children, without coaching, make 30 point swings over several months and met others from ethnic or linguistic minorities who were clearly disadvantaged by the tests' cultural and vocabulary bases. Test-retest reliability data, wide confidence intervals and large administration error scores all added to my view that IQ tests had very limited validity and utility unless you wanted to manipulate.

Making myself very unpopular with my boss, I abandoned use of IQ tests in my work and concentrated on skill referenced and skill diagnostic assessment. More important I think are to propose educational approaches that might help and find ways to motivate all concerned rather than use dubious measurements that might simply feed prejudice.

It is true that my adequate IQ score in 1962 enabled me to get into grammar school a year early (a daft wish of my mother's) but I am still useless at working out how to put on the lid of our pressure cooker. :wink:

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robin loops
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by robin loops » Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:33 pm

Debate of whether IQ can be accurately measured or not aside, it stands to reason people with higher intellect are more capable of learning complex things. But more interesting than that are the studies that show studying music can raise one's IQ scores. It's a safe assumption that studying a more complex musical style would result in a greater benefit as it would challenge the brain more than learning to play a few chords and strumming them casually.

There have been studies that show higher results in IQ tests just after short periods of listening to classical (or jazz) music as opposed to repetitive music with simpler structure and other tests that show people with higher IQ prefer more complex melodic structure in music (i.e. jazz, classical, etc.) and so we can also assume that people with higher IQ's would also be more prone to choosing to study classical. Perhaps there is even a correlation between IQ and polyphonic versus monophonic instruments. I would guess it's a combination of high IQ lending itself to the study (as well as having an effect on the interest in classical music) combined with the benefit of the mental exercise one gets from the study itself. That being said, it doesn't mean that everyone that chooses classical music study is an intellectual powerhouse, as is sometimes made apparent when perusing this forum. :lol:

As far as language goes. I found learning a second language to be much easier than for many other people. Perhaps this was a result of already having studied guitar (strengthening the part of the brain that processes language) or that studying the guitar in the first place was a result of having a natural ability in that area. Either way, I found that learning a second language, also had a positive effect on my ability to study and process musical concepts.

Related to that, I have found that any type of mental exercise has a positive effect on my ability to study music (and visa versa).
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all, and in the darkness bind them.
-James-

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by AndreiKrylov » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:09 pm

Rasputin wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:52 am
Laudiesdad69 wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:40 am
Does it take a high degree of smarts to play CG at all?
No!
I'm amazed when I look at member profiles, when I see the professions that are given. I'm sure that all the members must have relatively high scores, but what I wonder is does it take a higher degree of intelligence to play a musical instrument, such as CG, to begin with?
well... I never took IQ test (why should I?)... and most of my life I just playing (composing, teaching) classical (or other) guitar... it is my only occupation...
I'd better speak by music...Please listen it on Spotify, Apple Music, Deezer, etc. Thanks!

Pat Dodson
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Pat Dodson » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:19 pm

AndreiKrylov wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:09 pm

well... I never took IQ test (why should I?)... and most of my life I just playing (composing, teaching) classical (or other) guitar... it is my only occupation...
The number of times you take an IQ test might well correlate negatively with level of intelligence of course. How best to test that hypothesis? :reflechir: :wink:

PeteJ
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by PeteJ » Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:58 pm

Hmm. It is not unusual to see a scientist talking about freewill as if it is not a metaphysical topic, but it still rankles a bit.

IQ tests are designed to test what they test. It does not seem unscientific to suggest that they test no more than this. The question is only that of what we mean by 'IQ'. What we test for Is certainly not all there is to intelligence.

There is also the question of whether it is more intelligent to be clever or wise. Clever people do the stupidest things. I can think of many published scientists and philosophers who I would not consider to be either but they'd do just fine in an IQ test.

Perhaps we could all agree that someone who has decided to play the CG has already proved themselves to be unusually intelligent. What this says for viola players I'm not quite sure.

Rasputin
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rasputin » Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:43 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 5:58 pm
Hmm. It is not unusual to see a scientist talking about freewill as if it is not a metaphysical topic, but it still rankles a bit.
There have been some scientific experiments which can cast light on why we experience our actions as chosen. I think the concept of free will is incoherent and I don't need an explanation of why it seems otherwise to be convinced of this - but still find the experiments quite interesting, and they would be useful if I was into trying to convert others to my way of thinking.

Rognvald
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rognvald » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:22 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:41 am
Rognvald, the mapping of the human genome completely debunked the idea of genetic determinism. Before this occurred, there appeared a number of books written by scientists who with immutable logic showed that parenting had nothing to do with how a child would turn out. According to them, nurture was a gypsy myth, and genes all determining. You could be as cold and unloving as you like to your child, even brutal, it would have no effect. I suppose only scientists, who think parental love is mere emotional mumble jumble, could believe this. And yet these notions briefly became respectable--such is the power of Science, as you insist on capitalizing it. Then, it all had to be taken back. Immutable science was just....mutable after all.

Murray's Bell Curve is insulting and has been debunked too.

By the way Nietszche would completely reject the modern thrall to science. Not science itself, but the way people aspire to live 'scientifically rational lives'.

Jeff,
Your entire remarks in the above quote are patently false. First, the mapping of the human genome corroborated the idea of genetic determinism rather than debunked it. When we find a gene for red hair, what else but genetic determinism caused it? Secondly, no scientists of any credibility ever said that "nurture" was not important to a human's development. If there is a school of thought that represents this idea among past or present scientists, I would like to know who they are that would possess this ridiculous concept of human maturation/development. However, no amount of "nuture" will ever increase intelligence long term as was cited in the "Bell Curve's" example of the dramatic failure of "Head Start" programs nationwide to increase IQ and the loss of any early gains by the time the students reached Junior High. However, what they did was to give impoverished youths a breakfast and lunch in a wholesome environment that starkly contrasted with the dangerous ghetto communities in which the children lived. Thirdly, the only people who tried to debunk the results of Herrnstein and Murrary's outstanding 20-year documented study in the "Bell Curve" were your "Nurture Advocates" who deny science(genes) and think that a good upbringing will determine IQ or even success in life. High IQ is not like good nutrition: you either have it or you don't. By the way, have you read the "Bell Curve" or are you quoting someone else's opinion? Lastly, as a student of Nietzsche for most of my life, you cannot possibly find one statement in all of his writings to support your last statement. Remember, Science of the late 19th Century was in its infancy as compared to today although the results of animal husbandry proved the benefits of good breeding/genetics in elevating a species for the last 10,000 years and more. Playing again . . . Rognvald P.S. To build a premise or provide a rebuttal on information read about a subject online does not equate to actually reading and studying a work/source material as I have done with "The Bell Curve" and the works of Nietzsche. . . especially in the staggering weight of false and ridiculous information that circulates in cyber space with anyone who has access to a computer and a keyboard.
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Rasputin
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rasputin » Sat Sep 09, 2017 3:37 pm

Steven Pinker was quite funny on this:

The human genome is often seen as the essence of our species, so it is not surprising that when its sequence was announced in 2001 commentators rushed to give it the correct interpretation for human affairs. Craig Venter, whose company had competed with a public consortium in the race to sequence the genome, said at a press conference that the smaller-than-expected gene count shows that "we simply do not have enough genes for this idea of biological determinism to be right. The wonderful diversity of the human species is not hard-wired in our genetic code. Our environments are critical." In the United Kingdom, The Guardian headlined its story, "Revealed: The Secret of Human Behaviour. Environment, Not Genes, Key to our Acts". ... All this from the number 34,000! Which leads to the question, what number of genes would have proven that the diversity of our species was wired into our genetic code, or that we are less free than we had realize, or that the political right is right and the left is wrong? ... Conversely, if it had turned out that we had only 20,000 genes, would that have made us even freer, or the envorinment even more important, or the political left even more comfortable?

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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by PeteJ » Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:48 am

Rasputin wrote:
Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:43 pm
There have been some scientific experiments which can cast light on why we experience our actions as chosen. I think the concept of free will is incoherent and I don't need an explanation of why it seems otherwise to be convinced of this - but still find the experiments quite interesting, and they would be useful if I was into trying to convert others to my way of thinking.
There has been no scientific research establishing the existence of experience or that examines how or why we experience our actions. For all the empirical sciences will ever know we are philosophical zombies. Indeed, for the most part this is what the natural sciences currently assume.

I also find our usual concept of freewill incoherent, and would suggest that it is wrong to state that we either do or do-not have freewill. But if pushed I'd rather say that we don't. So we can agree on this. This is the perennial view.

But this nothing to do with science. It is people who study consciousness who tell us that freewill is an illusion not people who study brains, or who study behaviour and make guesses about consciousness based on their observations.

I don't mean to be inflammatory and (Rasputin) as yet I don't know your view, but the way the sciences claim so much more than they have a right to claim is annoying and unprofessional, unscientific even, and it's currently an epidemic. The idea that consciousness can be studied by examining it in other people via our physical senses is so completely daft that it's a wonder we don't all fall about laughing.

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