Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
Whiteagle
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Whiteagle » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:10 pm

Mike Steede wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:35 pm
I suspect that people who are attracted to CG tend to be a bright bunch to begin with. As far as it making you smarter, I don't personally see it, but I think the study is a good alternative to our daily crossword puzzles to keep our minds young as we get older.
Hi Mike. This looks like a straight forward comment about the question being asked. Sorry this is not allowed! LOL :D :D :D

Andrew Pohlman
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Andrew Pohlman » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:37 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:47 pm
... it is my opinion that many people place an undue importance to IQ scores and high IQ is no ticket to success in life .... Rognvald
There are many "PhD janitors" here in the SF Bay Area - guys who could not handle the rigors of academic life and opted for a simpler way. Starving "genius" bloggers abound - if their IQ is so high, how come they have trouble paying the rent and affording food? And there is certainly more than raw IQ that goes into selecting candidates for jobs, although in Silicon Valley, arrogance and poor social skills can be easily ignored in lieu of huge brain power. CG playing skill requires much than than just raucous IQ.

Rasputin and PeteJ took us down a road the diverges radically from the topic. But to knit their line of discussion with the OP's topic: you can measure strength of focus, some would call that "consciousness", as the magnitude of theta waves. This of course assumes you are willing to correlate focus with a physical phenomenon. But you can measure different people, from musicians to Zen yogis, and you will see huge differences in the magnitude of theta waves comparing the "maestros" to the newbies. The magnitude of theta waves is considered "consciousness muscle", for lack of a better term.

So does a high IQ lead to better CG? Not quite from the scientific and/or practical evidence. If you flip it around a bit, then you can say: CG leads to higher levels of focus (higher magnitude of theta waves). Then the question becomes one of correlation between focus and CG skill.
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Rognvald
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:38 pm

"CG playing skill requires much than than just raucous IQ." Andrew Pohlman


Yes. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

PeteJ
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by PeteJ » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:08 pm

Well now, this is an interesting discussion. We sit on opposite sides a high fence.
Rasputin wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:11 pm
I think it's better to engage with his argument rather than trying to dismiss it in this way. He has devoted most of his working life to the study of consciousness and I think the title of his book Consciousness Explained counts as mentioning this. It may well be that your conception of consciousness is so different from his that you don't consider that his subject is really consciousness at all, but I don't think you can say it's not until you've argued for your conception.
Dennett's arguments are empty and this is why they've had no impact. He does not study consciousness he just thinks about it a lot, which is not the same thing. By 'study' I mean examine the phenomenon itself. I cannot imagine calling a book 'Consciousness Explained' and then failing to explain it but I suppose it's good marketing. I'm sorry, but I have nothing but contempt for his approach, which I do not regard as scientific. Let's stay away from Dennett.
(Do you see the 'self' as eternal?) No, I see it as organising principle which the brain has evolved to use because it helps individuals survive and reproduce. Within the logical system that is the brain, it is true by definition that the self exists, but it does not exist in any strong objective sense. I think that consciousness can plausibly be explained in the same way.
Hmm. Given your definition of consciousness, which seems to be 'intentional' consciousness', this is more or less the perennial view. It is just there would be more to consciousness than your definition allows.
We have not discussed it but I gather from your references to the perennial philosophy, and from what little I know about that, that you would also regard the self as a construct of the mind. Presumably you would say that to explain the self as a fiction - possibly a useful one, but a fiction nevertheless - is to understand it.
Anybody can say it is a fiction, no understanding would be required. To understand it would be to actually know it is a fiction. Dennett uses a bower-bird nest as a metaphor for the self and does not even realise that he is endorsing the Upanishads.
Why then do you deny that to explain consciousness in the same way is to understand it?
I think you'd agree that an explanation is not an understanding. It might the wrong explanation.
It seems to me that consciousness can be explained in terms of ordinary physics.
Good luck with this idea. Perhaps we could come back in another thousand years and see how the project is going.

Therefore, while I suspect that the phenomena of physics are themselves derived, I think it is plausible that they are more fundamental than consciousness. I don't discount the possibility that it may be the other way around, but so far as I can see, you are just insisting that it must be without giving any reasons.
I appreciate your avoidance of dogma. if you do not 'discount the possibility' then you do not know whether consciousness is prior to space-time or depends on it. The reasons for my view are long and involved but I'm only endorsing Kant. My reasons are a lot to do with metaphysics, where materialism does not survive analysis, and it takes account of a vast literature that explains consciousness. Metaphysics would be crucial here since if empiricism cannot study consciousness then logical analysis becomes of vital importance. Unless, that is, we are going to actually study consciousness, which would be the best and most scientific way to make sense of it.

Our views are so far apart that I think we're doing well not to be getting agitated. :)

I've deliberately not expanded on my view because it's OT, and was just defending it from charges of being unscientific. I'd be happy to delve deeper but perhaps it should be elsewhere. Or perhaps not. I'll expand if you want but I don't want to bore you. It's a huge topic. One thing is for sure, the unfalsifiability of Solipsism means that your view will never be verified and is untestable. It would therefore be tough to argue that it's scientific.

Rasputin
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rasputin » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:42 pm

PeteJ wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:08 pm
Dennett's arguments are empty and this is why they've had no impact. He does not study consciousness he just thinks about it a lot, which is not the same thing. By 'study' I mean examine the phenomenon itself. I cannot imagine calling a book 'Consciousness Explained' and then failing to explain it but I suppose it's good marketing. I'm sorry, but I have nothing but contempt for his approach, which I do not regard as scientific. Let's stay away from Dennett.
Therefore, while I suspect that the phenomena of physics are themselves derived, I think it is plausible that they are more fundamental than consciousness. I don't discount the possibility that it may be the other way around, but so far as I can see, you are just insisting that it must be without giving any reasons.
I appreciate your avoidance of dogma. if you do not 'discount the possibility' then you do not know whether consciousness is prior to space-time or depends on it.
No exactly. I don't see how I could have been any clearer about that. I am just interested in the subject - I am inclined towards a version of Dennett's view but am not deeply invested in it. Still, if his views are so repugnant to you that we can't even mention them - let alone weigh them dispassionately on their merits - then I don't see that we can make any progress, so let's leave it.

PeteJ
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by PeteJ » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:26 am

I'm not being unfriendly, but I'm very sure we cannot make progress so I'd agree with leaving it. For Materialism it is necessary to reject metaphysics and logic and for me there's nowhere to go after this. Arguments can only turn into angry hand-waiving and I have no wish to go there. I don't find D's views repugnant, just poorly researched and ignorant. If you wish to compare Dennett with someone who studies consciousness I'd recommend 'The Nature of Consciousness' by Rupert Spira. The difference is breath-taking. Note that almost nobody believes that Dennett has explained anything.

The problem I have is this. If a person cannot see that materialism is logically absurd then there will be no way for a metaphysical discussion to make progress. Being unable to appeal to logic means that it can only become a shouting competition.

I've been at this a long time and write about it and I've learnt over the years that it is usually impossible to talk about metaphysics with Materialists and Monotheists because these views depend on a rejection of metaphysics and reason. As this is my subject I'm better off not getting drawn far into this sort of discussion. It's just a practical response the situation. If you're interested you''ll end up reading Spira and others like him so we don't need to risk falling out.

Not being difficult, just trying to avoid trouble.

PeteJ
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by PeteJ » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:37 am

Hmm. Just re-read the previous post and see it was much ruder than it was supposed to be. I was making a general point, not making assumptions about anybody.

Rasputin
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Rasputin » Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:45 am

No offence taken here, it just made me wonder whether you have to be a materialist in the sense of thinking that matter is a fundamental existent in order to believe that physical phenomena are prior to consciousness. On the view that there are no fundamental existents - which is pretty much my view - it could be either way around, or it could even be that it doesn't make sense to ask which is prior because they are two sides of the same coin.

PeteJ
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by PeteJ » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:08 am

Thanks for not taking offense. I'm outspoken on these issues.

This discussion shows how tricky is the Perennial view. It would agree with you that there are no fundamental existents. Rather, there would be an all-embracing phenomenon that is Real. You will have spotted that existence cannot be explained by positing a fundamental existent and this is an important logical result.

It's an interesting thought but I struggle to see how matter could be prior to matter unless Materialism is true. It would work better to say that Mind is prior but much the same problems arose for subjective Idealism as for Materialism. Matter/Mind is a dilemma because neither of the horns makes sense in logic. Here Western thought grinds to a halt and pessimism sets in. The perennialist would say that the dilemma arises because both horns are unworkable and being a rational species we can work this out. This well-established result of logic is rejected by Plato's Academy, however, so it goes nowhere from one century to the next. If we accept it then Mind and Matter can be reduced and a fundamental theory becomes possible.

I'm arguing that we should accept the results of logic but it is a difficult argument to make in Western philosophy. It's a strange world.
Last edited by PeteJ on Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

PeteJ
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by PeteJ » Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:08 am

Double post again. Something odd going on.

errrtoffie
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by errrtoffie » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:30 pm

Well there's a lot of research out there saying music is good in our brain specially if you're playing an instrument and reading notes at the same time.

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Evocacion
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Evocacion » Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:39 pm

Whiteagle wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:10 pm
Mike Steede wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:35 pm
I suspect that people who are attracted to CG tend to be a bright bunch to begin with. As far as it making you smarter, I don't personally see it, but I think the study is a good alternative to our daily crossword puzzles to keep our minds young as we get older.
Hi Mike. This looks like a straight forward comment about the question being asked. Sorry this is not allowed! LOL :D :D :D
It certainly seems that way sometimes! :roll:

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:53 pm

Laudiesdad69 wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:27 am
Do any of you know whether or not there is a correlation between IQ scores and whether a person would score higher on IQ tests if they were moderately good as a CG player, versus players of other instruments, or people who don't play musical instruments at all? It's just a question that I have, as I have taken two IQ tests in my life.

One test was when I was in high school, and I had just started dabbling with my first guitar for about six months. The other was quite recent, and my score was 20 points higher than the one in high school. I don't know if it means I am any smarter than I used to be, or if I have just got better at taking Tests?

I wonder what someone like Bream or Williams would Score? Or how about Andrew York?
Hi, Scott,
Hope you are well. Have not heard from you in a long time. I saw your original post ages ago, and I have avoided the subject because I felt that it does not matter. Recently, I heard Yuji Wang play. And I thought, this person has to be one of the biggest geniuses alive. So I guess deep inside me there is a conviction that there is connection between IQ and musicianship. HOWEVER, the brain is very complex, and IQ has more than 100 identifiable components. Overall IQ gives no information about your IQ for a specific skill, such as music.
Yisrael van Handel
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Laudiesdad69
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:43 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:
Sun Sep 24, 2017 5:53 pm
Laudiesdad69 wrote:
Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:27 am
Do any of you know whether or not there is a correlation between IQ scores and whether a person would score higher on IQ tests if they were moderately good as a CG player, versus players of other instruments, or people who don't play musical instruments at all? It's just a question that I have, as I have taken two IQ tests in my life.

One test was when I was in high school, and I had just started dabbling with my first guitar for about six months. The other was quite recent, and my score was 20 points higher than the one in high school. I don't know if it means I am any smarter than I used to be, or if I have just got better at taking Tests?

I wonder what someone like Bream or Williams would Score? Or how about Andrew York?
Hi, Scott,
Hope you are well. Have not heard from you in a long time. I saw your original post ages ago, and I have avoided the subject because I felt that it does not matter. Recently, I heard Yuji Wang play. And I thought, this person has to be one of the biggest geniuses alive. So I guess deep inside me there is a conviction that there is connection between IQ and musicianship. HOWEVER, the brain is very complex, and IQ has more than 100 identifiable components. Overall IQ gives no information about your IQ for a specific skill, such as music.
Hi there, hope would are well.
I posted this thread hoping to know whether a higher than average IQ score meant higher than average musical skills. And the thread developed into some discussion of consciousness, etc. I will pm you with some additional info.
Scott

PeteJ
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Re: Is there any correlation between IQ scores and CG playing?

Post by PeteJ » Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:41 am

My apologies. It was partly my fault. A lot of topics overlap.

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