I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Talk about things that are not necessarily related to music or the guitar.
Rognvald
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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Rognvald » Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:49 am

"I answered your question(s) but you didn't acknowledge them - should I expect you to be this way in the future? If so I'll just stay quiet. Thanks. A few other posters in this thread have expressed their admiration for Sondheim's music so my opinion is validated." Cipher

Cipher,
I was trying to be polite so I answered your response in a subsequent post from another member and thought that you would get the drift. Sorry. And, your posts have as much validity as mine or anyone else's so . . . please don't "just stay quiet." However, this Forum focuses on serious CG music. It is not music for the masses but an elevated Art form that takes a lifetime of dedication and discipline to even begin to scratch the surface. To pretend that popular music is anything other than music for the masses is patently disingenuous. You like Sondheim . . . great. Perhaps, like Wagner, his work will stand the test of time. However, I don't think it will. Playing again, Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:10 am

Toru Takemitsu and others seem to think that the Beatles will stand the test of time. And the unwashed masses grokked them just fine.

Same with Vivaldi and a host of others we now call High Art. Dickens was serialized in the newspapers. Hugo was a smash hit with the masses. People committed suicide in sympathy with Goethe's Werther. It was a best seller. The French Academy rejected Cezanne's paintings and Van Gogh was considered a primitive if he was considered by the arbiters of classical culture at all. So the picture is complicated.
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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by powderedtoastman » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:34 pm

Kevin Cowen wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:51 pm
You heard a piece of music you didn't like.
Wow. Hold the front page.
Cheers for sharing that with us.
Bangs head on desk.
I see where you're coming from but that's a bit harsh! I think there's a little more to the discussion than just that, by asking "why?"

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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Cipher » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:12 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:49 am
"I answered your question(s) but you didn't acknowledge them - should I expect you to be this way in the future? If so I'll just stay quiet. Thanks. A few other posters in this thread have expressed their admiration for Sondheim's music so my opinion is validated." Cipher

Cipher,
I was trying to be polite so I answered your response in a subsequent post from another member and thought that you would get the drift. Sorry. And, your posts have as much validity as mine or anyone else's so . . . please don't "just stay quiet." However, this Forum focuses on serious CG music. It is not music for the masses but an elevated Art form that takes a lifetime of dedication and discipline to even begin to scratch the surface. To pretend that popular music is anything other than music for the masses is patently disingenuous. You like Sondheim . . . great. Perhaps, like Wagner, his work will stand the test of time. However, I don't think it will. Playing again, Rognvald
Yes this most of this forum focuses on serious guitar music but this section that we're posting in is called The Cafe and according to the first post in this section it says

While in here, you may talk about subjects that do not necessarily relate to music or the guitar.


so I can freely talk about Sondheim and musicals here and you can take your snooty and elitist "classical music is greater than everything else which is music for the masses" philosophy and outlook to another part of this forum and espouse your narrow view of what's great in music everywhere else but here, thank you.

As for Sondheim, he's written some very beautiful songs including Send In The Clowns which will certainly live on as long as Wagner's Isolde's Liebestod will. Other beautiful Sondheim songs that will live on forever are Being Alive, Pretty Women and Not While I'm Around to name a few timeless classics. They've already been around 40 plus years so they're on a good track. BTW I have no idea why you use a measuring stick of "stand the test of time" as the value of a piece of music - we're really not alive on this world for a long enough time to make that crucial to our enjoyment of a piece of music. J.S. Bach's music lay unpopular and almost dormant except to very few for more than a 100 years until Felix Mendelssohn resurrected and promoted his works again to the general public. So don't worry about stand the test of time and what's great too much and enjoy music of all genres and styles.

BTW I've devoted more than 55+ years to performing, perfecting my virtuoso technique and teaching the classical guitar and I'd like to think that I've scratched more than the surface of much of the CG repertoire. No disrespect to Tarrega or Torroba but their music however sweet and tuneful is certainly not greater than Sondheim, Gershwin or Cole Porter. In fact you could probably make the argument that the American tunesmiths are better composers.

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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Steve Kutzer » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:38 pm

Ah, Cole Porter! And Harold Arlen - two giants who have captured my heart.

I was in Vienna recently and saw a concert of Vivaldi's Four Seasons. I was thinking ok, something I've heard 1000 times and so wasn't expecting much. But the "Orchestra 1756" and the setting in St. Charles brought something special. And the most amazing part was interspersed through the program was a Greek counter-tenor. I must admit to being completely ignorant of Opera, and unfamiliar with the counter-tenor. When he started to sing, I was startled. I had never heard such a high, but natural voice coming from a man. And then one of his arias brought me to literal tears, which has very rarely happened to me. I thought of Red's lines from Shawshank Redemption:
I have no idea to this day what those two Italian ladies were singing about. Truth is, I don't want to know. Some things are best left unsaid. I'd like to think they were singing about something so beautiful, it can't be expressed in words, and makes your heart ache because of it. I tell you, those voices soared higher and farther than anybody in a gray place dares to dream. It was like some beautiful bird flapped into our drab little cage and made those walls dissolve away, and for the briefest of moments, every last man in Shawshank felt free.
I had no idea what he was singing about either, but the emotion of anguish and regret was so obvious. To reference another movie, I felt my reaction was akin to Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman.

I adore classical guitar. It is so intimate. But it has never brought me to tears. The human voice, on the other hand... I saw a production of West Side Story in Washington D.C.'s Kennedy Center, about 15 years ago. Maria was a Latin American opera star. When she sang, I was riveted.

But I'm still with the OP. Modern Musicals have not had this effect on me. It's almost like the scores are computer generated.
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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by amezcua » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:17 pm

Carp ?

Rognvald
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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Rognvald » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:58 pm

To Cipher and Kutzer,
I will let your words speak for themselves. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Andrew Fryer » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:59 pm

I shall now blithely ignore stage musicals and shift the topic to film scores, the composers of which were taken seriously over the course of the 20th century. Mind, Danny Elfman might be an exception, or maybe he's 21st century.
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Rognvald
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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Rognvald » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:08 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:10 am
Toru Takemitsu and others seem to think that the Beatles will stand the test of time. And the unwashed masses grokked them just fine.

Same with Vivaldi and a host of others we now call High Art. Dickens was serialized in the newspapers. Hugo was a smash hit with the masses. People committed suicide in sympathy with Goethe's Werther. It was a best seller. The French Academy rejected Cezanne's paintings and Van Gogh was considered a primitive if he was considered by the arbiters of classical culture at all. So the picture is complicated.
Hi, Jeff,
I must disagree that the "picture is complicated." I would rather say that it just needs a bit more fleshing out. In regards to the Beetles, I would argue that if one academically studied the transcribed music(note by note, measure by measure) they would find nothing special other than what one would find in other folk music in non-English speaking countries around the world. In fact, in comparison to German Lied Musik, they would fall apart as the doggerel called "poetry" today would fare in comparison to that of W.B.Yeats. In regards to some classical composers who achieved success in their lifetime from the "masses," this has always been the case but perhaps Vivaldi is not a good example, at least for me, in comparison to the earth-shattering music found in Bach, Brahms, Beethoven, Wagner, Mendelssohn, or Schumann, but certainly more accessible to the general public. And, without wealthy patronage, Vivaldi's works would not have surfaced. History records that Vivaldi died in poverty. So much for success. In regards to Dickens and Hugo, we must not also forget the most prodigious writer to date, Balzac, whose works were also published in the newspapers. But, one must understand that prior to the 20th Century and the advent of the greatest destroyer of human ambition--television, the masses read for entertainment. And, since the cost of owning a leather-bound book with quality paper was inaccessible to them(paperbacks did not exist), the newspapers of the day serialized many authors. Now, when we turn to Art, we must factor in the power of the elite Art critics and schools who dictatorially pronounced what was Art--good and bad. The masses had nothing to do with the process. In my opinion, Cezanne was a good craftsman but a lightweight intellectually in comparison to VanGogh and Gauguin. If you believe, as I do, that good Art transcends technique and has the ability to touch a human's rasion d'etre then we can discount the praises of jealous and dogmatic art critics and the dull-witted masses who have the ability to provide success for Artists. And, like many talented Artists, Gauguin and especially Van Gogh died in poverty and went to their graves believing their lives were a failure. We all have a choice in our life. And, the road you take determines who you are as a human being. In Robert Frost's classic poem, "The Road Not Taken," the final stanza prophetically reads:

"I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference."

Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:33 pm

." In my opinion, Cezanne was a good craftsman but a lightweight intellectually in comparison to VanGogh and Gauguin."

Oh, my...

You see, you need a bit of humility when you start dogmatically assigning value, high and low. That 'well Cezanne was a good craftsman' line just suggests that, like everyone, your own judgement and taste may fall a bit short after all. (Cezanne is a lot more than 'a good craftsman'.) And isn't The road less traveled by' a cliche?
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Andrew Fryer
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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Andrew Fryer » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:46 pm

Someone needs to read a good book about Gauguin!
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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by slidika » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:10 pm

I think Rodgers and Hammerstein musicals are fine for light entertainment. But, I'm probably old-fashioned . . . :)
Whenever I am not ready for my music lesson, I call it 'facing the music'.

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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Rognvald » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:44 pm

Andrew Fryer wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:46 pm
Someone needs to read a good book about Gauguin!
[/quote


Why not try "Noa Noa--The Tahitian Journal" which, to me, serves as an exemplary autobiography of his life? Gauguin was the real deal. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Rognvald
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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Rognvald » Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:56 pm

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:33 pm
." In my opinion, Cezanne was a good craftsman but a lightweight intellectually in comparison to VanGogh and Gauguin."

Oh, my...

You see, you need a bit of humility when you start dogmatically assigning value, high and low. That 'well Cezanne was a good craftsman' line just suggests that, like everyone, your own judgement and taste may fall a bit short after all. (Cezanne is a lot more than 'a good craftsman'.) And isn't The road less traveled by' a cliche?

Jeff,
There's nothing wrong with strong opinions and taking a stand in life. Try it sometime . . . you might be surprised how easy it can be. Lastly, if you consider the lines of Frost's poem a cliche, it is only because when a poet utters "poetic truth" it is embraced by all who have the ability to comprehend the words. To call the words in this fine poem a cliche from a person who is not a writer or who has not studied serious Literature borders on the comic. Robert Frost was one of a handful of great American poets of serious intent. Roethke, Snyder, Lowell, Cummings and Merwin round out my list. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

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Re: I can't stand the music from modern musicals, in general... why is that?

Post by Andrew Fryer » Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:08 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:44 pm
Andrew Fryer wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:46 pm
Someone needs to read a good book about Gauguin!

Why not try "Noa Noa--The Tahitian Journal" which, to me, serves as an exemplary autobiography of his life? Gauguin was the real deal. Playing again . . . Rognvald
Yeah, thanks, I read Noa Noa, which is a book by him, not about him.
From what I can remember reading about him in the 80s, he would have been quite comfortably off (he spent enough money buying land and building houses), it's just that he only painted the breadfruit, he didn't eat any - for his own consumption he bankrupted himself importing French Champagne, Cognac, caviar and foie gras.
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