gitgeezer wrote: ↑
Fri Jan 05, 2018 6:59 pm
"cakes and ale" was a common expression among Egyptians. There was a good deal of contact between Greece and Egypt, and Aesop may have picked up the expression in this way.
Since Aesop doesn't mention ANY alcoholic beverage, NO!
(warning, we talk of "Aesop", but we don't have any of his writings extant, assuming he ever existed or wrote. All we have is other people's paraphrases of what they call Aesopic fables. Our main source is Babrius, a writer in Greek, although he only uses Roman models, and Phaedrus, a writer in Latin. We have other minor "sources"; it's impossible to know if what they write is genuine or just old urban myth)
I'll take your word for it that the Book of the Dead uses a Hamitic word that has been translated as "cake" and mentions alcoholic beverages. The Egyptians had lots of different fermented drinks that we refer to as "beers" (not "ales"), and Aristophanes lists dozens of different Greek things that we translate as "cakes". In reality we have no knowledge of what many of these were - some were sweet, some were savoury. But even this neglects the context - did the Egyptians refer to them as frivolous foods, or essentials for a happy life for anyone who is deserving enough? As religious offerings? Were bread and water staples or punishments? Were what we call their "cakes" sweet or savoury?
You are confusing expression and sentiment. I have demonstrated that Aesop didn't use the expression.
When you quote something, you are quoting the expression, not the sentiment.
The sentiment is that everyone dies. Perhaps a Greek said "everyone dies."
The King James Bible's English expression
of the sentiment is "we go the way of all flesh". This is a literal translation of possibly Jerome's Latin (? I have read this Latin in Geoffrey of Monmouth, but I don't know which Bible Geoffrey would have used. I assume Jerome).
If you write a book entitled "The way of all flesh", you are quoting the KJB English expression. The Greek who said "we all die" is not using this expression, just expressing the sentiment. He is not the source of the expression "The way of all flesh"; the KJB is. You are not quoting the Greek. The KJB is regarded less as a translation of the Bible than it is regarded as a landmark in English literature
If Aesop mentions figs and dates and cheese and honey he is listing dainty foods.
He is saying figs and dates and cheese and honey; he is not saying "Cakes and Ale"; he's not speaking English for a start.
If the expression "cakes and Ale" is first used in a book published by Caxton, then the quote is from Caxton, it is not from Aesop, and it is not from the Egyptian Book of the Dead either.
1975 Calatayud y Gisbert, Yamaha CG131S.