flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Choice of classical guitar strings and technical issues connected with their use.
kamikazepilot
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flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by kamikazepilot » Tue Sep 13, 2016 10:56 pm

SDC11323 (912 x 684).jpg
While restringing my new Ramirez 4NE for the first time , I noticed several frets that were ' flat' across the top, & had plenty of file marks. Should I leave well alone, or do these frets require crowning & polishing? Many thanks in anticipation, Paul.
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Philosopherguy
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by Philosopherguy » Tue Sep 13, 2016 11:10 pm

Looks like they levelled the frets and forgot to re-crown them? Is this guitar brand new? Or was it used?

I see in the past you have emailed Ramirez about strings. You should send them this picture and let them know this is from a new guitar. Ramirez generally has very good quality control. But, it seems odd they would leave a fret so flat and not polished up. Neither of my Ramirez suffer from this kind of thing. On mine, obviously they have levelled frets, but there is no signs of file marks or of being too flat. It's really too bad when guitars like this suffer from these simple things that should have been fixed while being set up.

The 4NE is a beautiful sounding guitar though. I'm sure you will be happy with it.

Martin

As an afterthought, you should check where you bought the guitar and see if they might have done work to it or something to set it up. It really doesn't seem to me like it could have come from the factory like that. Ramirez are usually pretty good that way. If the shop did some work to it, they might not have realized the way it should be. I re-checked both my Ramirez and the frets are all very good. All polished and all nicely done. Never know though!
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

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Steve Ganz
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by Steve Ganz » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:17 am

Those frets must be dressed.
Steve

MessyTendon
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by MessyTendon » Thu Sep 15, 2016 6:55 pm

The factory didn't do that...Some jerk "tech" did it. Take it to real luthier and pay to have the frets serviced. Simple tasks can do lot's of harm if not done with care.

Laudiesdad69
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:21 am

I have a 4NE and the frets are really small and flat across the top of the frets. I have never had a guitar with this small of frets before, but it plays amazing. Also, is the neck on yours really big compared to your other guitars? I had an R4 that had a smaller neck, but this 4NE seems very thick at the first fret.

kamikazepilot
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by kamikazepilot » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:36 pm

Latest on these flat frets. The supplier from whom I purchased this brand new guitar offered me the opportunity recently to view & try two new Ramirez 4NE guitars from a delivery that they had just received, with the opportunity to exchange if I desired. Before visiting I took measurements with a vernier of the fret heights in three places across each of the eighteen full frets, and they were very consistent. I also checked the levelness (in the same three places ) spanning three frets going from the nut towards the saddle. My guitar had recently been restrung with D'Addario EXP44 extra hard tension strings. My fret tops were beautifully level, with no discernible rocking of the straight edge at all.
The first new guitar that I looked at had very level frets - but they were all flat , with a broader area of flatness than mine, & were all lower than mine , ie more metal had been removed.

The second guitars fret level was no where near as good, exhibiting rocking of the straight edge in half a dozen places, but the fret height was similar in height but not of the same consistency as mine.

I chose to keep the original instrument because of the fret levelness and height consistency- my thinking being that it will be easier to crown these - a job I intend to do myself- and end up with a top quality instrument.

I would like to add that I am not knowledgeable and am an absolute beginner to the classical guitar, and the above only represents my findings. I am sure that any of these three instruments in more capable hands than mine could be made played beautifully without modifications. Would I buy another - YES i love it to bits!!!!!

kamikazepilot
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by kamikazepilot » Thu Dec 22, 2016 1:34 pm

Laudiesdad69 I have measured both of my guitars, because I agree with your observations about the neck seeming thick at the first fret on the 4NE. I compressed all six strings onto the first fret & measured from the top of the string to the central point of the neck, & width at the first fret. Results:

Ramirez 4NE Thickness 23.47mm Width 53.08mm
rodriguez Mod A 24.75mm 54.74mm

I tried a profile gauge, but no discernible difference .

My impression was that the Rodriguez was slimmer at the neck, but the opposite seems to be the case..........

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Michael.N.
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Dec 22, 2016 2:35 pm

They are thick necks, the Rodriguez especially so. Big hand required for that, bucket hand.
Oh I've just read your post again. You are measuring the neck thickness wrong. It's 1 st fret position from the fretboard surface (not fret surface) to the central (thickest) point at the back of the neck.
Historicalguitars.

kamikazepilot
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thick neck

Post by kamikazepilot » Thu Dec 22, 2016 4:36 pm

Obviously I have strings on , but if you allow 2.38mm for the fret + strings gives a thickness of 21.09mm for the Ramirez. Hope this helps.

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Michael.N.
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by Michael.N. » Thu Dec 22, 2016 6:28 pm

Seems on the thin side now. Check your measurement of the D or G string and the fret height. They should come to near 1.8 /1.9 mm's.
That should help even more.
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Steve Ganz
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by Steve Ganz » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:14 am

For an accurate measurement of neck thickness with the strings on, I use a caliper, put a little blocky wood chip between the D and G strings, measure the thickness including the block, then subtract the block thickness.
Steve

kamikazepilot
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by kamikazepilot » Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:11 am

Thanks Steve, I've just measured the G string & fret height (between the D & G string ) . Fret height = 1.22 mm G string (D,Addario EXP 44 ) = 1.03
giving a total of 2.25mm. , giving a neck thickness of 21.22mm. I think that's enough measuring for now- - I only checked the measurement in the first place , because like Laudiesdad69 , I had formed the impression that the Ramirez neck was discernibly thicker that my other guitar, - which is not the case.

I started this thread because I was surprised that a Guitar costing £2000+ from a famous & respected manufacturer / Luthier would pass their Quality Control, without receiving it's final set-up- perhaps all guitars of this ilk from all manufactures are dispatched in a similar condition , thereby allowing the purchaser to fine tune it to their liking? After all, it is a musical instrument & surely it's sound/tone would benefit from correctly crowned frets??
To quote from Ramirez web site-- '' I personally supervise the construction process from start to finish, and all of the guitars must receive my final approval to indicate they are of the highest quality. My desire is to practice the time honored tradition of my fathers and build the very best guitar possible.''
Amalia Ramirez

Would my observations of three Brand new Ramirez guitars confirm that statement?

Having said all of the above , I really love the guitar , & am enjoying learning to play it. Kind regards & season greetings. Paul.

Laudiesdad69
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by Laudiesdad69 » Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:37 am

I would caliper it but the last time I did that, the caliper left a mark. Oh, kamikazepilot, the frets on the 4NE are crowned flat.i guess you could say it's the "Les Paul" of classical guitars lol. Don't try and have them crowned round, you won't have any fret left to play on since they are really small.
I also play an electric (An RS custom Brian May replica) that has a thickness of 1 and 1/4 inch at the point between the zero fret and the first fret. I like em big and thick. My 4NE has a sultry, womanly tone. I call it Gohar. Its a girl but she's a little chunky.

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Steve Ganz
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by Steve Ganz » Fri Dec 23, 2016 7:13 pm

kamikazepilot,
It has been an interesting issue to discuss.
Have you contacted Amalia directly?
Steve

Philosopherguy
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Re: flat frets on Ramirez 4NE

Post by Philosopherguy » Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:27 am

Laudiesdad69 wrote:I would caliper it but the last time I did that, the caliper left a mark. Oh, kamikazepilot, the frets on the 4NE are crowned flat.i guess you could say it's the "Les Paul" of classical guitars lol. Don't try and have them crowned round, you won't have any fret left to play on since they are really small.
I also play an electric (An RS custom Brian May replica) that has a thickness of 1 and 1/4 inch at the point between the zero fret and the first fret. I like em big and thick. My 4NE has a sultry, womanly tone. I call it Gohar. Its a girl but she's a little chunky.
I also think you should contact Ramirez in Spain directly and ask about this and show them your picture of the fret. I checked both of my Ramirez and none of the frets are flat like that, but you said that every one you tried had these issues. It seems odd to me. I wonder if the US distributer is "setting up" the guitars before they ship to the stores. I bought both mine in Canada and my 130Anos had never been opened from the factory by anyone before I was there opening it with the salesperson. I can see a few frets being a little flatter than others if they were too high for some reason when they got levelled, but none should be too flat. Unless your picture exaggerates the flatness somehow, it just doesn't seem right. It might be worth investigating. I'm just not sure why yours has such flat frets when every other Ramirez I have seen doesn't seem to have this issue. Mind you, I haven't inspected them all that close up. But, I know the frets have felt fine while I have played them.

In the end, as long as the guitar plays and feels ok then everything is fine.
*************************************************************
2013 Ramirez 130 Anos - Spruce
2013 Ramirez 4NE - Cedar
1998 Dean Harrington - Spruce
1977 Kuniharu Nobe - Spruce
1971 Yamaha GC3 - Spruce

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