D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Choice of classical guitar strings and technical issues connected with their use.
Polifemo de Oro

Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by Polifemo de Oro » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:06 pm

After all the tone they produce is often closer to the sound of gut strings than is nylon.
And this is held out as some kind of improvement? :mrgreen:

Leo
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by Leo » Wed Feb 11, 2015 2:36 pm

A recent blind listening test that Trevor Gore gave on this forum, compared nylon strings to carbon strings, one of the carbon stringed guitars won by a large margin by the members who voted. I have recently installed Galli Carbonio (again) on one of my guitars and I am again surprised at the increased volume and clarity of the sound compared to the nylon strings that were on it before. I would not automatically rule out carbon strings for your guitar. If you have a guitar that is somewhat bass heavy and needs some help with increased volume and clarity for the treble strings, give them a try.

On my other guitar (also a spruce top) these same strings seem to choke the sound, I think the tension is too much for this guitar, and this guitar has bright enough trebles already.

Peterson2

Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by Peterson2 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:31 pm

riffmeister wrote:
Peterson2 wrote:...overall they are not better, and the more you play them, the more you hear they are actually dreadful and kill your instruments natural resonance....
What people "like" is completely subjective and your opinion on the matter is clear. However when you say things like "kill your instrument's natural resonance" well that's just nonsense. Carbon and nylon strings have different timbral qualities, that's about all one can say in a factual sense. What sounds "good" is completely subjective.
the more time you spend actually listening to guitars, and with certain strings, there becomes a clear distinction. the distinction between carbon strings and nylon strings is nearly as big as the difference between lattice or double top guitars and traditional fan braced guitars with solid wood.
here is a very clear example: Search YouTube for: Bradley Kunda plays Castelnuovo-Tedesco's "Dios La Perdone"
it is a traditional Bernabe guitar, and so obviously has carbon strings on it - they make the guitar not even sound traditional spanish with the metallic effect.
from about 1:44 you can hear the effect more strong on the trebles - that point is probably best to illustrate to untrained ears, the strings make it sound like a lattice guitar :P yuk


this guitar would sound better with nylon strings, it has been proven over the years on so many Bernabe and Bernabe built Ramirez - it would sing more and offer more dynamic range, the carbon strings have killed its natural character - it is not something i am making up. riffmeister, you make some good guitar commentary, but if you cannot hear it yet, i hope one day you will!

riffmeister
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by riffmeister » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:35 pm

Peterson2 wrote:
riffmeister wrote:
Peterson2 wrote:...overall they are not better, and the more you play them, the more you hear they are actually dreadful and kill your instruments natural resonance....
What people "like" is completely subjective and your opinion on the matter is clear. However when you say things like "kill your instrument's natural resonance" well that's just nonsense. Carbon and nylon strings have different timbral qualities, that's about all one can say in a factual sense. What sounds "good" is completely subjective.
the more time you spend actually listening to guitars, and with certain strings, there becomes a clear distinction. the distinction between carbon strings and nylon strings is nearly as big as the difference between lattice or double top guitars and traditional fan braced guitars with solid wood.
here is a very clear example: Search YouTube for: Bradley Kunda plays Castelnuovo-Tedesco's "Dios La Perdone"
it is a traditional Bernabe guitar, and so obviously has carbon strings on it - they make the guitar not even sound traditional spanish with the metallic effect.
from about 1:44 you can hear the effect more strong on the trebles - that point is probably best to illustrate to untrained ears, the strings make it sound like a lattice guitar :P yuk


this guitar would sound better with nylon strings, it has been proven over the years on so many Bernabe and Bernabe built Ramirez - it would sing more and offer more dynamic range, the carbon strings have killed its natural character - it is not something i am making up. riffmeister, you make some good guitar commentary, but if you cannot hear it yet, i hope one day you will!
I hear just fine, thank you. Different timral qualities, that's all......that's your "metallic" descriptor. My experience with carbon strings has shown me that they generally offer more sustain than nylon, so you hear more overtones as the note decays compared to nylon. I completely understand your aesthetic preference, I'm actually in the same camp! But your disdain for carbon strings goes beyond factual information.

BTW, how is your new guitar doing? Any plans to build another, perhaps in cedar?

Peterson2

Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by Peterson2 » Sun Feb 15, 2015 5:32 pm

riffmeister, you will hear the difference soon, its just takes a little bit of time ;) your commentary is good on this site, so i need you to see the light ;) it matters not your experience. i see guitarists who play 30 years on the 1 guitar, and their ear is worse then a guitarist who owns 5 guitars in 3 years. people buy strings these days,,, and they buy 20 packets from different companies to try on a guitar they have built for them, because they are not educated on the subject. so they try and try the different strings, and they are still left scratching their head as they havent learnt how to hear, and can not remember what the last set sounded like - and at the end of the day they are left impressed by the loudest most sustaining string - the carbon string. this is a very natural process for "classical" guitarists, as we are never taught about real sound of the instrument, instead we are only taught how to play one note after the other in order for the length of a piece of music. classical guitar = recitation.

carbon strings are like carbon fibre braced guitars, and double top guitars - instant sound for a weak technique player, but no reward for a player seeking to make a sound.

the longer you spend with the carbon strings, that instant effect you hear - it starts to sound so synthetic. --- that better sustain you hear riffmeister is not a good thing, it is a fake accentuation, it is not natural, it goes beyond what the instrument offers, and it does not let the player have total control of the sound. i used to be impressed by carbon in my earlier playing days -Savarez had really good publicity!

In the past 3-4 years i have gone on a mission to try as many guitars as i can and to actually learn to listen. and then i started a project to build my own guitar too. after a while i realised you could not determine the true nature of a guitar you are trying if it had carbon strings. testing guitars with carbon strings turned out to be a huge waste of time, the sound is so fake!! the more you hear it, the worse it gets... so restringing guitars becomes a priority.

my guitar i built came out great - instantly open in sound, and is an intrument requiring the player to make the sound- so when i show lattice/doubletop players with a a weak freestroke technique my instrument, they are not impressed! haha - and they make my guitar sound like a student $200 guitar. but for traditional players who seek to get the sound out of the instrument, and not let the instrument play for them, players who play with a full technique and lots of restroke, my guitar is wonderful and plays better then $30,000 guitars (i tried it side by side with a 2007 Fleta and 2007 Bernabe Spruce).
My guitar has a very neautral character aswell, nothing too light or dark - it reminds me a lot of Romanillos guitars. so it is Spanish in that it invites the player to use all the tone colours (it has a very wide colour range) , yet it isnt the Spanish Fleta or Ramirez sound which has a real "character" to it. but that is what i aimed for in this first one, a sound similar to Romanilos, and more so his English compatriot Rubio. i studied and measured 2 Rubio guitars i liked the sound of. see my thread on my gutiar, with one soundsample at the moment, need to make a video soon.

my mind is open for future builds. i will build more when i have time, as for Cedar, i would love to build a ramirez -braced guitar in cedar, but i would like to do it at the same time side by side with 2 other builds, one with Redwood from California, and the other of Tasmanian King Billy Pine - i thing both those woods would produce great instruments (better then Cedar), and i feel the ramirez bracing would work well on them to produce a real character sound.

THIS comment above should be in my guitar build thread, as i have obviously hijacked the thread about rubbish D'Addario Pro Arte Carbons. but really, people should stick to D'Addario nylon strings, they are better anyway - this new stuff is all fashion and money making for the string companies.

hesson11
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by hesson11 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:03 am

Peterson2 wrote:people should stick to D'Addario nylon strings, they are better anyway - this new stuff is all fashion and money making for the string companies.
This is your opinion, and you are certainly welcome and entitled to it. What I don't understand is why your posts seem to show no tolerance for the opinions of others. I'm sure that when nylon strings were new (not ALL that long ago), there were those who said, "This new stuff is all fashion and money making for the string companies."

-Bob

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bacsidoan
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by bacsidoan » Mon Feb 16, 2015 4:25 am

GuitarX wrote:
Peterson2 wrote:i see guitarists who play 30 years on the 1 guitar, and their ear is worse then a guitarist who owns 5 guitars in 3 years.
Before attacking people, you might want to learn the difference between "then" and "than." You make that error a few times in your lengthy rant.

("Then" refers to a sequence or time; "than" refers to a comparison.)
It must be nice to be infallible :wink:

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petermc61
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by petermc61 » Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:01 am

I just wish Peterson2 would tell us what he really thinks!!! :-)

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pogmoor
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by pogmoor » Mon Feb 16, 2015 10:37 am

Polifemo de Oro wrote:
After all the tone they produce is often closer to the sound of gut strings than is nylon.
And this is held out as some kind of improvement? :mrgreen:
Not necessarily; I was trying to counter the argument that they are new and therefore bad!
hesson11 wrote:
Peterson2 wrote:people should stick to D'Addario nylon strings, they are better anyway - this new stuff is all fashion and money making for the string companies.
...I'm sure that when nylon strings were new (not ALL that long ago), there were those who said, "This new stuff is all fashion and money making for the string companies."
Eric from GuitarLoot
Renaissance and Baroque freak; classical guitars by Paul Fischer (1995) and Lester Backshall (2008)
Yamaha SLG 130NW silent classical guitar (2014), Ramirez Guitarra del Tiempo (2017)

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mike.janel
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by mike.janel » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:03 pm

I have just switched the E,B and G on my guitar from the D'Addario Pro Arte EJ-45 to the Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF (the bass are the same Hannabach 950 MT Titanyl).
I recorded the same piece I posted a few weeks ago.
It may be interesting to compare how the same guitar sounds in similar conditions with these two sets.

Here is the "Nylon version" :

Youtube

And the "Carbon version" :

Youtube


Still not sure which I like more (I tend towards Nylon but it depends on the specific piece), but in any case I am keeping the Carbon 3ed.

Michael
Michael
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2013 Amalio Burguet 3M (Cedar)
1989 Yamaha CG 110 (Spruce)

Dofpic
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by Dofpic » Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:50 pm

I find most carbon strings less abrasive than Peterson2's opinions.
2011Fritz Ober(maple), 2015 Eric Sahlin, 2006 Greg Byers(fan)2009 Eric Monrad(maple)
2012 Martin Blackwell(for sale), 2003 Tacchi Simplcio satinwood 2017 E. Bottelli 52 Hauser, 2014 Joshua DeJonge Cedar( for sale) 2002 Jeff Elliott spruce.

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mike.janel
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by mike.janel » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:10 pm

Dofpic wrote:I find most carbon strings less abrasive than Peterson2's opinions.
I like to have the option to use different string types (LT, HT, Carbon) and change the character of my guitar.
It relaxes the urge to buy another guitar... :)
Michael
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2013 Amalio Burguet 3M (Cedar)
1989 Yamaha CG 110 (Spruce)

mrvegas
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by mrvegas » Wed Feb 18, 2015 4:45 pm

Michael --

On your two posts of the Sor B minor study --

In all honesty, with my eyes closed, I can't notice a major difference in the sound. I'm pretty sure if you switched the recordings on me, I couldn't tell which was which.

Nice playing, by the way.

I think every guitarist of any kind (classical, steel string, electric) has that perfect tone in his head and is always searching for a way to realize that tone. Whether an audience really cares (at least consciously) is an entirely different issue.
Life is too short to be perfectly in tune.

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mike.janel
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Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by mike.janel » Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:44 pm

mrvegas wrote:Michael --

On your two posts of the Sor B minor study --

In all honesty, with my eyes closed, I can't notice a major difference in the sound. I'm pretty sure if you switched the recordings on me, I couldn't tell which was which.

Nice playing, by the way.

I think every guitarist of any kind (classical, steel string, electric) has that perfect tone in his head and is always searching for a way to realize that tone. Whether an audience really cares (at least consciously) is an entirely different issue.
Thanks.
I was once sure that I could tell the difference betwee three different esspresso capcules I have for my coffey maker.
I was quite sure on which one was my favorite.
Untill I blind tested it and guessed it all wrong.
I fellt a difference but was not able to tell which was what.
Beside the understanding that drinking three esspressos in a row is not a good idea, this test did not change my opinion about the three blends. :)
Michael
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2013 Amalio Burguet 3M (Cedar)
1989 Yamaha CG 110 (Spruce)

Nick Clow

Re: D'Addario Pro Arte Carbon EJ45FF

Post by Nick Clow » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:39 am

I love a good opinion and I am vastly amused by Peterson2. Hoping for some more.

My take is also that carbon strings are less sensitive to the force used by a player. They give quite a clear ringing sound without necessarily having to be plucked that hard. When you pluck them hard there is less difference in volume from plucking them fairly softly than there is with nylon strings.

Nylon strings are more sensitive to how hard you play. If you get stuck in and play them really hard then you get volume out of them, but you get much less volume with soft or medium playing. This brings to mind the (seemingly now historic) playing style of the guitarist having a high action on his Spanish-made classical guitar, nylon strings and giving it some serious right hand to get some volume out of the box.

These days most players seem to play with more regular, even volume and expression. (Of course there are other things contributing to this, such as the construction of guitars etc.) Carbon's fine if that is how you play and what you want.

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