[Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

When you give a link to a video, post your message in this forum, give your post a title following this example: [YouTube] Paganini; Capricho nº 24.
User avatar
Tom Poore
Posts: 1034
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 4:00 pm
Location: South Euclid, Ohio, USA

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Tom Poore » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:06 pm

At the risk of being labelled a “hater,” here’s my take. I’m no fan of Miloš Karadaglić. His playing does nothing for me. I don’t however, begrudge him his success. For whatever reason, Deutsche Grammophon has seen fit to heavily promote him. Good for him.

What some object to, however, is the breathless hype. Karadaglić isn’t blazing a new path. He’s not saving the guitar. If anything, one might convincingly argue that he’s trivializing it. He’s feeding the perception that the guitar makes nice elevator music.

From what little I’ve seen (I don’t follow him closely), Karadaglić seems nice enough, and I’ve no reason to dislike him personally. He doesn’t appear as taken with himself as pianist HJ Lim—another product of corporate hype. He’s just playing a game he didn’t invent. He’s tried to do it as well as he can. My real distaste is for boardroom shills intent on anointing the next big thing, who then browbeat us with gobs of money and hoopla to make us accept their shallow judgment.

Tom Poore
South Euclid, OH
USA

User avatar
Adrian Allan
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:56 am

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:29 pm

lucy wrote: For whatever reason(s), Milos succeeded, when many others didn't. Is that too just much?
When it is for the wrong reasons, then yes, it might cause a certain amount of annoyance for those who really are at the top of their game as musicians, or those who have the experience and knowledge to spot real greatness amongst the thousands of good to very good players who are out there.

The "hate" is not just a matter of jealousy - it is more a dislike of how classical music has also been polluted by hype and marketing, so that the ability to play right at the top of the game is now not the most vital factor.

Nobody out there is begrudging the success of Jason Vieux, for example. I wonder why?
D'Ammassa Spruce/Spruce Double Top

goingeasy
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:49 am

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by goingeasy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:59 pm

Susil wrote:
Adrian Allan wrote:Not impressed. A masterclass is not teaching children - it should be conservatory level pupils at least.
I'm a bit late to the party in responding to this I know, but couldn't quite pass it by, because I couldn't disagree more.

Why on earth should this kind of event be confined to one particular type of student? Milos presumably doesn't consider himself above having these kids in his masterclass - and whatever we might think of his playing, that speaks volumes about his attitude to encouraging other players. And look at it from the perspective of the youngsters playing. How much much of an inspiration would that be? I can only imagine how much more hard work I'd have put in as a teenager had it given me a chance to play with a player of that level!
I feel the same as you. Great talent can already be recognized at this age. The greatest performers of our times (Pepe Romero, Bream, Williams, Barrueco, etc...) were already playing the pants off of a classical guitar by the age of this young man in the video. Some may have even had the first formal recital by this age (and I'm not talking about a little high school recital where only family and friends attend). Start them young! I was at a Pepe Romero Master class where the youngest boy played the best. This boy was young and small and he was not playing a scaled down guitar model so the guitar appeared big on his lap. He picked this difficult Bach piece which I think was one of his more obscure movements from a lute suit that nobody plays. Everybody was like "Wow" and probably thinking to themselves "THAT was very good little man!" The rest of the boys (older and larger) were "fuddling" through some well known but not as difficult pieces. Sure, they did well (much better than I would do in front of a large crowd) but this little boy was definitely the stand out.

goingeasy
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:49 am

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by goingeasy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:11 pm

Mr Kite wrote:Sounds as though the objection is to the name then, rather the event - but what would you have called it? "Guy-who-is not-really-a-master-but-has-nevertheless-forged-a-successful-career-by-combining-such-ability-as-he-does-have-with-savvy-marketing-good-looks-and-a-willingness-to-play-pieces-with-mass-appeal-and-undoubtedly-has-enough-skill-to-teach-the-teenagers-expected-to-attend-besides-being-extremely-well-placed-to-fire-not-only-their-enthusiasm-but-also-that-of-the-general-public-for-what-is-not-an-especially-popular-instrument-class"?
This is hilarious! :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

User avatar
lucy
Posts: 1797
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:33 pm
Location: England

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by lucy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:36 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:
lucy wrote: For whatever reason(s), Milos succeeded, when many others didn't. Is that too just much?
When it is for the wrong reasons, then yes, it might cause a certain amount of annoyance for those who really are at the top of their game as musicians, or those who have the experience and knowledge to spot real greatness amongst the thousands of good to very good players who are out there.

The "hate" is not just a matter of jealousy - it is more a dislike of how classical music has also been polluted by hype and marketing, so that the ability to play right at the top of the game is now not the most vital factor.

Nobody out there is begrudging the success of Jason Vieux, for example. I wonder why?
Funny you should mention Jason Vieaux. Of course I don't begrudge his success, but I have to admit that I don't really go for his playing much. I know many people will disagree, but although I realise he's very good, frankly, I find his playing a little sterile. A genuinely nice guy, for sure, though - and good luck to him.

What I'm picking up is that there seems to be a genuine disagreement within the classical guitar community as to what consistitutes excellent playing. Some consider Jason's style of play to be great, whereas others prefer a more "romantic" (can't think of a better word at the moment!) approach.

However, what I have observed, from somewhat anecdotal evidence, I have to admit, it seems the general public tend to go for the more "romantic" kind of player every time.

Of course, some will say it's because they lack education, knowledge, etc. or it could perhaps be because they hear classical guitar playing with fresh ears? I don't really know what the reason is, but it definitely appears to me such a division exists.

Actually, I do have a theory about it, coming to think of it, I wonder whether general audiences are more interested in how a performer makes them feel inside, whereas some people at least, with more knowledge, are more interested in technical details. Just a thought.
“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are”. Theodore Roosevelt

Mr Kite

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Mr Kite » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:51 pm

I really don't think that captures the difference between Vieaux and Karadaglic. I wouldn't say Vieaux is sterile, I would call his playing balanced. I know what you mean but I can't stomach the idea that Karadaglic is Vieaux with extra feeling. I'd say more about why but I have to go out just now.

UKsteve
Posts: 588
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:48 pm
Location: St Albans, UK

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by UKsteve » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:57 pm

lucy wrote:Actually, I do have a theory about it, coming to think of it, I wonder whether general audiences are more interested in how a performer makes them feel inside, whereas some people at least, with more knowledge, are more interested in technical details. Just a thought.
Very intersting observation and very plausible.

Whenever my wife comes to classical guitar concerts with me, she goes for the "feel" factor. For example, last year Marcin Dylla did nothing much for her, despite prodigious technique, but she loved Ana Vidovic. Further, the latter was playing many pieces well recognised by the non-afficianado. In contrast Marcin came on and ripped through some extremely difficult and rarified pieces. TBH, I myself found Mr. Dylla fascinating from a technical perspective but probably enjoyed Ms. Vidovic more (even if I'd heard the pieces a million times; Recuerdos anyone?).

User avatar
Adrian Allan
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:56 am

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:11 pm

UKsteve wrote:
lucy wrote:Actually, I do have a theory about it, coming to think of it, I wonder whether general audiences are more interested in how a performer makes them feel inside, whereas some people at least, with more knowledge, are more interested in technical details. Just a thought.
Very intersting observation and very plausible.

Whenever my wife comes to classical guitar concerts with me, she goes for the "feel" factor. For example, last year Marcin Dylla did nothing much for her, despite prodigious technique, but she loved Ana Vidovic. Further, the latter was playing many pieces well recognised by the non-afficianado. In contrast Marcin came on and ripped through some extremely difficult and rarified pieces. TBH, I myself found Mr. Dylla fascinating from a technical perspective but probably enjoyed Ms. Vidovic more (even if I'd heard the pieces a million times; Recuerdos anyone?).
They are both examples of players of the very highest calibre.

I think the issue at stake here is that Milos just not come anywhere close to these two players, and the fact that he is hyped as being "up there" is an example of everything that is wrong with marketing.
Last edited by Adrian Allan on Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
D'Ammassa Spruce/Spruce Double Top

kirolak
Posts: 308
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:04 pm
Location: South Africa

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by kirolak » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:29 pm

There are so many top guitarists nowadays, one is spoiled for choice.

Personally, I am a huge fan of Ali Arango Marcano, but also Gabriel Bianco, who is very different. . . then there is Andrea De Vitis. . .how can one choose between them, except in their approach to certain pieces (eg Tansman's Passacaille by Sanel Redzic at the Guitar Festival in Zwolle, is the ultimate interpretation, in my opinion).

I tend to see Vieux as a bit boring (don't hit me!) & Ana Vidovic is amazing, but almost "sweet". . . I suppose it is all down to personal taste; yet there should be a Golden Mean, as well.

And as for easily recognisable pieces, I find them generally boring, not pushing the envelope. . . but who am I , anyway? (A major nobody :) )

User avatar
lucy
Posts: 1797
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:33 pm
Location: England

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by lucy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:53 pm

kirolak wrote:There are so many top guitarists nowadays, one is spoiled for choice.

Personally, I am a huge fan of Ali Arango Marcano, but also Gabriel Bianco, who is very different. . . then there is Andrea De Vitis. . .how can one choose between them, except in their approach to certain pieces (eg Tansman's Passacaille by Sanel Redzic at the Guitar Festival in Zwolle, is the ultimate interpretation, in my opinion).

I tend to see Vieux as a bit boring (don't hit me!) & Ana Vidovic is amazing, but almost "sweet". . . I suppose it is all down to personal taste; yet there should be a Golden Mean, as well.

And as for easily recognisable pieces, I find them generally boring, not pushing the envelope. . . but who am I , anyway? (A major nobody :) )
:lol: "A major nobody"? Actually, I think that goes for most of us on this forum!!

My perspective is that is doesn't really matter what other people think, or how people rate anyone in particular, what counts is what people actually DO with their musical ability, in practical terms.

I suspect all the players mentioned above would find this thread mildly amusing. They are living their dream, so to speak, earning a living from their guitar, so for them life is good, (very probably). While we argue about the relative merits of their playing, they are busily arranging their next concert, for an appreciative audience. (Apart from Milos - this must be awful for him)
“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are”. Theodore Roosevelt

User avatar
Adrian Allan
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:56 am

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:00 pm

lucy wrote:
I suspect all the players mentioned above would find this thread mildly amusing. They are living their dream, so to speak, earning a living from their guitar, so for them life is good, (very probably). While we argue about the relative merits of their playing, they are busily arranging their next concert, for an appreciative audience. (Apart from Milos - this must be awful for him)
I don't think this is necessarily true. There are a lot of people here with many years of experience of playing and listening who have not quite reached that level, or decided to take a different career route.

I trust my own judgement to be able to discriminate between the higher echelons of the guitar world, and I also trust the judgement of many on here.
D'Ammassa Spruce/Spruce Double Top

goingeasy
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:49 am

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by goingeasy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:05 pm

kirolak wrote:
And as for easily recognizable pieces, I find them generally boring, not pushing the envelope. . .
This is a major dilemma with most musical artist in any genre. Are they playing a piece in concert strictly for self gratification or are they going to stick with what the majority of the people know. Finding the balance is probably very difficult but most artist have to give way to what is going to please the masses and just throw a few odd tidbits for the people that are really listening and dissecting the music. Most classical guitar concerts are attended by non players and most are likely not well educated on the classical guitar repertoire. Recuerdos, Asturias/Leyenda and Romanza are typically home runs with the masses.

I remember attending a Yo Yo Ma concert and the place was packed. The audience gave him a great welcome and response throughout. When did he get the lion's-share of the applause? Encore - he came out and played a very familiar jazz tune. I think it might have been a Vince Guaraldi number (not Linus and Lucy).

goingeasy
Posts: 59
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2017 8:49 am

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by goingeasy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:08 pm

I have actually attended a Miloš Karadaglić concert in Los Angeles and I actually think he did very well. Did he completely enthrall me? No. Did I, at any point, fall to my knees and started weeping from a piece that I thought he interpreted perfectly? No. Still, I enjoyed his concert very much and he is a very good player. No, I personally do not feel he is currently among the greatest classical guitar players but he definitely has what it takes to be a recording and performing artist. He has earned the right to do that much. It is up to us to let him know if we appreciate what he is doing by buying or not buying his recordings and his concert tickets. He can then choose to take action and change or not change what he is doing. He also, like most classical guitarist, likely possesses the ability to get BETTER!

Milos and his associates(record label) have at least given many people the opportunity of sampling what he calls "his" art. Sadly, being an artist or even a great artist often takes a bit more than just creating great art. I'm not an art/music scholar but theoretically you should be able to just judge art on its technical and interpretive merits. If you have achieved that "greatness" to a certain degree, it would be nice if you were guaranteed success. Let the art speak for itself. SORRY, NOT IN REAL LIFE. It often times requires the person behind the art to be just as big (and maybe even bigger) than the art itself. If you are an artist creating great art in your attic and you truly don't care about anybody ever experiencing that art except yourself-then you are a great artist. It doesn't matter that you were the only one to see it-that was your goal.The problem is that most, if not all, works of art are emotional creations that are most satisfying to the artist when they are shared. If you really wanted your painting to be seen and experienced by others then you need to get it down from the attic and out the front door. Additionally, we are a human audience and we allow conscious and subconscious feeling to override the actual level of greatness of the art that we are experiencing. We let our feelings towards interpretation override our thought about the level of technique or vice a versa. Sometimes the art is making a cultural, religious or political statement that we are aligned with so we elevate the art's greatness. Sometimes the main attraction is the artist himself (although this tends to be a short lived attraction). What I'm getting at is that art (and its artist) has to figure out how to catch someones eye or ear and then the traveling begins. Travel through their portals of entry, down their pathways of communication and don't stop until you've struck a nerve. Milos, like Segovia, will likely never be the greatest classical guitarist in the minds of the general classical guitar community but that does not mean that he will not remain an important ambassador for the art form. They have both found the "pathway". Like Segovia he is a very good instrumentalist but unlike Segovia he is charismatic.

Maybe Milos' art is less significant than others but he was able to find the path to an audience. There is more to this formula than being a great player. Most professional CG players hopefully know that the audience is small even in the best case scenario. Unfortunately, most great classical guitarist will never find that path to the audience they are looking for. Why? That is for them to figure out.

User avatar
Adrian Allan
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:56 am

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:09 pm

Does Romanza really have a place in a guitar recital?
D'Ammassa Spruce/Spruce Double Top

User avatar
lucy
Posts: 1797
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:33 pm
Location: England

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by lucy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:44 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:Does Romanza really have a place in a guitar recital?
I don't know whether John Williams has ever played this piece in a recital, but he's certainly recorded it, I think more than once, along with many other pieces, even more popular than that one! Xuefei Yang and Carlos Bonell have recorded it too.
“Do what you can, with what you have, where you are”. Theodore Roosevelt

Return to “Our favourite websites”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 5 guests