[Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

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lucy
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by lucy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:56 pm

goingeasy wrote:I have actually attended a Miloš Karadaglić concert in Los Angeles and I actually think he did very well. Did he completely enthrall me? No. Did I, at any point, fall to my knees and started weeping from a piece that I thought he interpreted perfectly? No. Still, I enjoyed his concert very much and he is a very good player. No, I personally do not feel he is currently among the greatest classical guitar players but he definitely has what it takes to be a recording and performing artist. He has earned the right to do that much. It is up to us to let him know if we appreciate what he is doing by buying or not buying his recordings and his concert tickets. He can then choose to take action and change or not change what he is doing. He also, like most classical guitarist, likely possesses the ability to get BETTER!

Milos and his associates(record label) have at least given many people the opportunity of sampling what he calls "his" art. Sadly, being an artist or even a great artist often takes a bit more than just creating great art. I'm not an art/music scholar but theoretically you should be able to just judge art on its technical and interpretive merits. If you have achieved that "greatness" to a certain degree, it would be nice if you were guaranteed success. Let the art speak for itself. SORRY, NOT IN REAL LIFE. It often times requires the person behind the art to be just as big (and maybe even bigger) than the art itself. If you are an artist creating great art in your attic and you truly don't care about anybody ever experiencing that art except yourself-then you are a great artist. It doesn't matter that you were the only one to see it-that was your goal.The problem is that most, if not all, works of art are emotional creations that are most satisfying to the artist when they are shared. If you really wanted your painting to be seen and experienced by others then you need to get it down from the attic and out the front door. Additionally, we are a human audience and we allow conscious and subconscious feeling to override the actual level of greatness of the art that we are experiencing. We let our feelings towards interpretation override our thought about the level of technique or vice a versa. Sometimes the art is making a cultural, religious or political statement that we are aligned with so we elevate the art's greatness. Sometimes the main attraction is the artist himself (although this tends to be a short lived attraction). What I'm getting at is that art (and its artist) has to figure out how to catch someones eye or ear and then the traveling begins. Travel through their portals of entry, down their pathways of communication and don't stop until you've struck a nerve. Milos, like Segovia, will likely never be the greatest classical guitarist in the minds of the general classical guitar community but that does not mean that he will not remain an important ambassador for the art form. They have both found the "pathway". Like Segovia he is a very good instrumentalist but unlike Segovia he is charismatic.

Maybe Milos' art is less significant than others but he was able to find the path to an audience. There is more to this formula than being a great player. Most professional CG players hopefully know that the audience is small even in the best case scenario. Unfortunately, most great classical guitarist will never find that path to the audience they are looking for. Why? That is for them to figure out.
:bravo: What a Great Post!

Yes, Milos, and some others, found that path. And they're just doing the best with what they've got.

I do have one tiny quibble, though:- A few decades ago Segovia was thought to be the "greatest". He certainly inspired a whole generation, and further generations, in all things classical guitar. It's only in recent years people have started to pick him apart, which I might add is out of context to how people might have heard his playing all those years ago.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by goingeasy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:54 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:Does Romanza really have a place in a guitar recital?
If you're playing it like your reading off the page for the first time - then no. If you decide to do something very interpretive with the piece - absolutely.
Christopher Parkening use to play it as an encore sometimes. He does an amazing arrangement that I think was written by his cousin Jack Marshall. I have heard people doing Romanza with variations including tremolo that turned them into very effective pieces that were still recognizable to the average concert goer and satisfying to the CG connoisseur. If I tell you that I don't really want to hear Romanza in a recital it is not because it is not worthy of the professional stage, it would be due more to boredom with a melody line that I have heard a million times. I experience a similar feeling with Recuerdos del Alhambra.
Last edited by goingeasy on Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by goingeasy » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:11 pm

lucy wrote:
goingeasy wrote: I do have one tiny quibble, though:- A few decades ago Segovia was thought to be the "greatest". He certainly inspired a whole generation, and further generations, in all things classical guitar. It's only in recent years people have started to pick him apart, which I might add is out of context to how people might have heard his playing all those years ago.
Lucy! Thank you very much!
Also you don't need to quibble with me about Segovia because I am very well aware of the ground he broke for all of us who enjoy and play the classical guitar. I'm Spanish so I grew up with the sound of his guitar in my ear. While I have other players I prefer most of the times, there are times when only his recordings will do it for me. His tone is still something many guitarist are striving to emulate today. Yes he might be overly romantic with his playing but I love romance! :wink:

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:58 am

:bravo: Very nice master class! :merci: for posting it!

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by goingeasy » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:21 am

spanishguitarmusic wrote::bravo: Very nice master class! :merci: for posting it!
Thank you for reading it. It was somewhat long winded.
Will

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by UKsteve » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:09 am

As a side note, where is the OP in all of this? Not a single comment since the opener.

I've noticed he has a tendency to post potentially provocative YT videos, often without any comment, and then retreat off to the sidelines, presumably to watch the ensuing fracas, just as has happened here.

I, for one, don't think it's in the spirit of the forum for an OP to not participate in the discussion afterwards. I feel like I've been "had". Ho hum.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:02 am

I don't know anything about Miloš other than that he studied here and successfully sells his art. I have neither heard nor seen him - not even looked at this video yet, but I have heard him spoken of quite frequently so I am aware of the negative attitude of many players towards him.

It seems to be a guitar player's thing - the old joke, "How many guitarists does it take to change a light bulb?" springs to mind.
Answer: Any large number - one to do the job and all the others to explain that they could have done it better if only they'd had the opportunity.

I'm reminded of the German guy - Clayderman (don't know his real name) - that sold so many millions of albums to the unsuspecting non piano playing public. He hardly ruined things for all the real pianists out there did he?

Just an aside:
lucy wrote: I do have one tiny quibble, though:- A few decades ago Segovia was thought to be the "greatest". He certainly inspired a whole generation, and further generations, in all things classical guitar. It's only in recent years people have started to pick him apart, which I might add is out of context to how people might have heard his playing all those years ago.
I wonder how far this applies to the general public. Decades ago (I'm quite old) I attended a performance by a well known guitar duo - they performed some Handel. It was adequate but I didn't enjoy it particularly. The pair sitting beside me, a violinist and a pianist (one of whom had never heard a guitar in concert before), were discussing it. This comment stayed with me, "If you think that was bad you should hear Segovia!"

Perhaps Segovia was also the product of Joni's "star maker machinery".

It's notable that in all the many times spent in other people's homes - dinner parties, cheese and wine evenings, birthdays, book launches etc., etc. I must have heard everything from Chopin to Demis Roussos, La Mystère des Voix Bulgares to Yann Tierson - to this day nobody ever played a Segovia album.

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:24 am

Mr Kite wrote:This bit
UKsteve wrote:I suppose many on DELCAMP are glad he is now suffering the problems that stop him performing. Does that make you feel good?
I see it now, the form of words didn't make sense to me initially. I for one was very sorry to hear about Milos' injury. I doubt anyone was happy to hear about it, but if that was so then they need to have a long hard look at themselves.

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by goingeasy » Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:10 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote: Perhaps Segovia was also the product of Joni's "star maker machinery".
Is there another Joni Mitchell fan in the room?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by spanishguitarmusic » Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:08 pm

goingeasy wrote:
spanishguitarmusic wrote::bravo: Very nice master class! :merci: for posting it!
Thank you for reading it. It was somewhat long winded.
Will
You're welcome, I enjoyed reading it! :)

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:32 am

goingeasy wrote:Is there another Joni Mitchell fan in the room?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Not a fan (of anybody) really, but if there was ever an argument for a song-writer achieving a literary award she's one that I'd consider way before some.

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Gary Macleod » Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:37 am

There's a recording of him on iTunes playing among other things the fugue from Bachs lute suite no. 2 . This is a hard piece, it's music of the highest level and he plays it live really really well. I can see how people hate the hype but that's the marketing world and comes with the territory, don't let it detract from what he has achieved. I feel really sorry that he has injured his hand after all the hard work he's put in and everything he has achieved, I hope he makes a full recovery.

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Whiteagle » Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:04 am

I saw him play in Sydney a few years ago. Packed concert hall, enjoyable concert, he is very personable.

Its challenging to make a career performing, fill concert halls and sell Cds and he seemed to be suceeding at all 3.

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:16 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:Not impressed. A masterclass is not teaching children - it should be conservatory level pupils at least.
But I wonder would he be comfortable teaching that level; some may outshine him in ability and knowledge. That is the sad truth.
Adrian, you and I both attended a summer school more years ago than we care to think, and like all summer schools much of the teaching was in what is popularly known in that situation as a masterclass. Many of those learners were nowhere near the players in this video. While it is probably the case that there is in the strict sense a tendency to devalue the currency of the term masterclass by using it when either the tutor or the players are not really 'masters', nobody is in a position to write laws about who gets to qualify in either role. As long as nobody is fooled and robbed of their cash or seriously misled into life-changing decisions, I'd say its harmless to use the term in this way.
For what its worth, the players were actually well chosen for the situation, which was an event put on by a local music education provider (Bristol Plays Music ; = BPM!) and were presumably about the best they had on offer - rising Grade 7 & 8 at those ages - about 17 - is perfectly reasonable; and if it helps generate a sense of pride, commitment and engagement not just with the players but with the younger audience looking up to them to call it a masterclass, I'd do the same thing myself.
I have to say I was astonished to note that two out of the three players were playing off the right leg. Its really hard to believe that any tutor, let alone one capable of enthusing youngsters enough to get to that level, could allow that situation. Ditto the massive, unshaped nails.
While I thought Karadaglić did a good job of relating to the youngsters, making them laugh, and in fact gave some perfectly reasonable advice well said, he seemed to go off the boil towards the end. Careful here, as this was clearly rather edited down from probably about 30 mins each student. The editing also gave the impression of far too much Karadaglić talking and not enough playing, so I would hope they were able to play more rather than just sitting there like lemons.
I was disappointed that Karadaglić was unable to do more with the topic of rubato; he was a student of Michael Lewin after all, for whom shape of line and phrase, playing with time and pulse are as important as beauty and character of tone. I can't believe anybody can just say its just a personal thing you have to find. Fair enough to point out the need, to try to sing the line, to mention harmony, but it seemed simplistic and unhelpful ... the editing again perhaps.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by brooks » Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:46 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
It's notable that in all the many times spent in other people's homes - dinner parties, cheese and wine evenings, birthdays, book launches etc., etc. I must have heard everything from Chopin to Demis Roussos, La Mystère des Voix Bulgares to Yann Tierson - to this day nobody ever played a Segovia album.
That's funny, I don't find it notable at all.
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:Decades ago (I'm quite old) I attended a performance by a well known guitar duo - they performed some Handel. It was adequate but I didn't enjoy it particularly. The pair sitting beside me, a violinist and a pianist (one of whom had never heard a guitar in concert before), were discussing it. This comment stayed with me, "If you think that was bad you should hear Segovia!"
Perhaps they were tone deaf. Bream isn't. Here are a couple of quotes from him:

Nonetheless, much of the music that was written for Segovia's guitar was eminently suited to the instrument; it captured the audience's imagination, and allowed Segovia's beautiful sound and prodigious technique to dazzle them into believing that not only was something *really* happening, musically speaking, but that must now be taken seriously intellectually.
-Julian Bream, A Life on the Road pg 53

My real inspiration was obviously Segovia, the great Spanish guitarist.
-Julian Bream, A Life on the Road pg 23

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