[Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

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Adrian Allan
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:50 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Adrian Allan wrote:Not impressed. A masterclass is not teaching children - it should be conservatory level pupils at least.
But I wonder would he be comfortable teaching that level; some may outshine him in ability and knowledge. That is the sad truth.
Adrian, you and I both attended a summer school more years ago than we care to think, and like all summer schools much of the teaching was in what is popularly known in that situation as a masterclass. Many of those learners were nowhere near the players in this video. While it is probably the case that there is in the strict sense a tendency to devalue the currency of the term masterclass by using it when either the tutor or the players are not really 'masters', nobody is in a position to write laws about who gets to qualify in either role. As long as nobody is fooled and robbed of their cash or seriously misled into life-changing decisions, I'd say its harmless to use the term in this way.
For what its worth, the players were actually well chosen for the situation, which was an event put on by a local music education provider (Bristol Plays Music ; = BPM!) and were presumably about the best they had on offer - rising Grade 7 & 8 at those ages - about 17 - is perfectly reasonable; and if it helps generate a sense of pride, commitment and engagement not just with the players but with the younger audience looking up to them to call it a masterclass, I'd do the same thing myself.
I have to say I was astonished to note that two out of the three players were playing off the right leg. Its really hard to believe that any tutor, let alone one capable of enthusing youngsters enough to get to that level, could allow that situation. Ditto the massive, unshaped nails.
While I thought Karadaglić did a good job of relating to the youngsters, making them laugh, and in fact gave some perfectly reasonable advice well said, he seemed to go off the boil towards the end. Careful here, as this was clearly rather edited down from probably about 30 mins each student. The editing also gave the impression of far too much Karadaglić talking and not enough playing, so I would hope they were able to play more rather than just sitting there like lemons.
I was disappointed that Karadaglić was unable to do more with the topic of rubato; he was a student of Michael Lewin after all, for whom shape of line and phrase, playing with time and pulse are as important as beauty and character of tone. I can't believe anybody can just say its just a personal thing you have to find. Fair enough to point out the need, to try to sing the line, to mention harmony, but it seemed simplistic and unhelpful ... the editing again perhaps.
You made some good points. I agree that perhaps I was being over fussy when I objected to the term "masterclass" in this situation.

I think my issue is more broadly about the marketing success of Milos, which, is way beyond the actual raw talent of the player. It's not nice to single out a particular player for scrutiny, but although in my opinion Milos by no means a bad player, he is not up there among the best, even in his own age group, and the level of attention and hype given to him, shows that the classical music industry has almost sunk to "Susan Boyle" level of finding a reason to hype somebody beyond their real ability, given a good story or image (story in Boyle's case, image in Milos' case).

Although I'm not the best player myself, I do think I can spot the greats from the "good" , or "very good" simply because I have spent decades being immersed/distracted by all things classical guitar related. At that particular guitar festival you mention, we both spotted that Judicial Perroy and Ana Vidovic were destined for future success. Even then, it must be said that both players were in a different league from Milos, and I presume standards have risen further still between then and now.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:47 am

Adrian Allan wrote:......
I think my issue is more broadly about the marketing success of Milos, which, is way beyond the actual raw talent of the player. It's not nice to single out a particular player for scrutiny, but although in my opinion Milos by no means a bad player, he is not up there among the best, even in his own age group, and the level of attention and hype given to him, shows that the classical music industry has almost sunk to "Susan Boyle" level of finding a reason to hype somebody beyond their real ability, given a good story or image (story in Boyle's case, image in Milos' case).
Although I'm not the best player myself, I do think I can spot the greats from the "good" , or "very good" simply because I have spent decades being immersed/distracted by all things classical guitar related. At that particular guitar festival you mention, we both spotted that Judicial Perroy and Ana Vidovic were destined for future success. Even then, it must be said that both players were in a different league from Milos, and I presume standards have risen further still between then and now.
The question of Karadaglić in the broader sense was I felt too distant from the OP to come back to. But we can probably find a tangent even so. I think you are correct that the artist in question is in a position where his marketing backing has created a hyped reputation, but would add that this is not a historically unique instance. To a greater or lesser degree, there have long been examples of artists who for some reason or other, have for a while gained profile in this kind of way. Its probably a lot easier nowadays given how easy it is to communicate globally, but if you go through a broad historical perspective through the various vocal and instrumental disciplines, I think you will find plenty of examples. Given that it is an un-regulated market, we should hardly be surprised, and insofar as it creates enthusiasm and broadens the overall appeal I would count it as a good thing.
The important and I would say reassuring thing, is that we use the word 'classical' (or 'classic') to name our instrument and its music, because a central feature of both is the matter of standing the test of time. There is a good reason we keep coming back to the central figures of Segovia, Bream, and Williams - they have stood that test. At any given moment during their careers, there may have been other players who for some specific point, grabbed some of the limelight from them. Here it gets really complicated because of course, if we want to start thinking of historical parallels, post WW II the whole world of popular music is to an extent one giant hyped monstrosity, and for Segovia at least, his career spanned the rise to commercial dominance of that giant, which did not work in the same way in earlier times, not least in that the demarcation between musics was perhaps less extreme.
I would speculate that in 50 years people will still be discussing Segovia, Bream, and Williams; and hopefully others. I guess that just as over time players have shot across the firmament, given pleasure to many, annoyed a few, and vanished into the footnotes of history, this process will carry on.

Btw, I don't remember Vidovic being there - was that just for the competition? I didn't stay for that. I remember Perroy's face when he discovered - I think I pointed it out to him - he'd learnt the wrong Sor Study for the competition. But most of all I remember how he played La Catedral at the end of the two hour students' concert in a stuffy hot hall - and got encored!
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:14 am

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Adrian Allan wrote:......
I think my issue is more broadly about the marketing success of Milos, which, is way beyond the actual raw talent of the player. It's not nice to single out a particular player for scrutiny, but although in my opinion Milos by no means a bad player, he is not up there among the best, even in his own age group, and the level of attention and hype given to him, shows that the classical music industry has almost sunk to "Susan Boyle" level of finding a reason to hype somebody beyond their real ability, given a good story or image (story in Boyle's case, image in Milos' case).
Although I'm not the best player myself, I do think I can spot the greats from the "good" , or "very good" simply because I have spent decades being immersed/distracted by all things classical guitar related. At that particular guitar festival you mention, we both spotted that Judicial Perroy and Ana Vidovic were destined for future success. Even then, it must be said that both players were in a different league from Milos, and I presume standards have risen further still between then and now.

Btw, I don't remember Vidovic being there - was that just for the competition? I didn't stay for that. I remember Perroy's face when he discovered - I think I pointed it out to him - he'd learnt the wrong Sor Study for the competition. But most of all I remember how he played La Catedral at the end of the two hour students' concert in a stuffy hot hall - and got encored!
Yes, I remember now - you stayed for week one only and in the second week, some more of the competitors arrived, including a fourteen year Ana Vidovic, and it was clear from the outset that she would win the competition and the decision was unanimous.

And I remember the encore as well by Judicial, and he played Sevilla (as well as John Williams in my opinion). I am only just getting Sevilla to a good standard now, but some people are just born with talent. At the festival Judicial played a Paul Fisher guitar, which I think suited him much better than his current Smallman.

I also remember our guitar quartet by John Duarte with what you called "fifths stacked like bales of hay" in your review. I have a silly memory for these things!
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:18 pm

brooks wrote:
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote: It's notable that in all the many times spent in other people's homes - dinner parties, cheese and wine evenings, birthdays, book launches etc., etc. I must have heard everything from Chopin to Demis Roussos, La Mystère des Voix Bulgares to Yann Tierson - to this day nobody ever played a Segovia album.
That's funny, I don't find it notable at all.
Really? Maybe notable is the wrong word - anyway I still notice it and it's not just Segovia - I have lots of acquaintances (musicians) who will often be excited to share their latest discoveries - which have never, ever been the guitar or its music. Like it or not we are members of a minority. I remember an editorial in one of the classical guitar magazines - someone might recall who was writing - said editor had been "praised" by a friend for the time and effort he or she put in over countless years ... refining and mastering music that, "nobody wants to listen to."
brooks wrote:
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:Decades ago ... This comment stayed with me, "If you think that was bad you should hear Segovia!"
Perhaps they were tone deaf. Bream isn't. Here are a couple of quotes from him:

Nonetheless, much of the music that was written for Segovia's guitar was eminently suited to the instrument; it captured the audience's imagination, and allowed Segovia's beautiful sound and prodigious technique to dazzle them into believing that not only was something *really* happening, musically speaking, but that must now be taken seriously intellectually.
-Julian Bream, A Life on the Road pg 53

My real inspiration was obviously Segovia, the great Spanish guitarist.
-Julian Bream, A Life on the Road pg 23
But Bream's a guitarist. He doesn't count and I notice that he speaks of fooling the audience.

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Apr 08, 2017 12:27 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:...
And I remember the encore as well by Judicial, and he played Sevilla (as well as John Williams in my opinion). I am only just getting Sevilla to a good standard now, but some people are just born with talent. At the festival Judicial played a Paul Fisher guitar, which I think suited him much better than his current Smallman.

I also remember our guitar quartet by John Duarte with what you called "fifths stacked like bales of hay" in your review. I have a silly memory for these things!
Judicial's Catedral was videoed and I have it on my YT channel, not the Sevilla though. Glad I was right in remembering yourself as being in the quartet (the quartet version of Duarte's Americana, for the curious), wasn't going to say in case I got it wrong. This was over 20 years ago :shock:
If I said bales of hay, it should have been straw - I know these things now.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:08 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote: It's notable that in all the many times spent in other people's homes - dinner parties, cheese and wine evenings, birthdays, book launches etc., etc. I must have heard everything from Chopin to Demis Roussos, La Mystère des Voix Bulgares to Yann Tierson - to this day nobody ever played a Segovia album.

Mark, like me (!) you are too young; I think you'd find that with such a track record of dining out in the 1950s-60s you'd be more likely to find somebody subtly demonstrating their urbanity by having the old boy on the gramophone in the background.
brooks wrote:...
Nonetheless, much of the music that was written for Segovia's guitar was eminently suited to the instrument; it captured the audience's imagination, and allowed Segovia's beautiful sound and prodigious technique to dazzle them into believing that not only was something *really* happening, musically speaking, but that must now be taken seriously intellectually.
-Julian Bream, A Life on the Road pg 53

My real inspiration was obviously Segovia, the great Spanish guitarist.
-Julian Bream, A Life on the Road pg 23
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:But Bream's a guitarist. He doesn't count and I notice that he speaks of fooling the audience.
Those indeed might be slightly double-edged quotes (to mangle metaphors), certainly the first one. One might add that in Segovia's time, at least his earlier career, it would be probably fair to say that there was a degree of intellectual cultural force in Segovia's place in the musical world. I would suggest that since his decease, that would be more limited, to his work as pioneer, ambassador and figurehead. As is often noted, his aesthetic priorities remained largely unchanged from his youth; which I can quite understand, harking back to the 70s as I do! Bream's quote I would think was meant to apply to Segovia's early days, when he (almost) singlehandedly changed the world's attitude to the instrument and its repertoire. And in terms of Bream's inspiration in Segovia, that must have been in JB's youth primarily?

To counterbalance the above, here's an anecdote. I had a very pleasant train ride in the company of the violinist Trevor Williams, past co-leader of the BBC Symphony Orchestra - it was about 1989. We met on the station at Waterloo wondering out loud about the delay to the train and because I was carrying a guitar case he left me with his belongings while he went and made enquiries. Those belongings included his violin case, containing one Guarneri del gesu so I must have looked really respectable! He was going to Dorchester to lead an orchestra in the St Matthew Passion.
And he had plenty of very favourable things to say about Segovia, though as I recall they were mostly about the moods, feelings and atmosphere he created, rather than intellectual stuff. He was happier talking about Bach and Schubert - but then I probably was too!
A couple of years later I had the chance to play a Bach fugue to him (the G minor sonata one) in a lesson.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Sat Apr 08, 2017 3:25 pm

Here is the video that Stephen was talking about. The last movement is the one that is really worth watching,.


Youtube
https://youtu.be/K9_ZPHpsv1s[/youtube]




I know this thread has drifted, and it has moved towards to a discussion of what constitutes real talent in a furiously competitive classical guitar world with so few opportunities, even for the really gifted.

I have nothing against Milos and players like him, but I believe that the resentment that follows him around is obviously a result of his success, when compared to the real virtuoso players, who remain unnoticed apart from within the tiny self-referential circle of classical guitarists.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by AndreiKrylov » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:02 pm

More people interested in guitar music - is good!
This way or other? - it is OK...

After 50 or 100 years? - maybe other names will come out from this time... some names which not mentioned here... and something commercial may disappear by itself with almost no trace by virtue of been something completely not different, not original :)
Last edited by AndreiKrylov on Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by eno » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:19 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:a discussion of what constitutes real talent in a furiously competitive classical guitar world with so few opportunities, even for the really gifted.
Right to the point, and that is what I don't like in the CG world and try to stay away from. For me music is only about beauty. Competition it totally irrelevant to beauty. I work in the industry and see enough competition, music for me is a getaway frorm this world of human competition driven by survival instincts. Unfortunately if you are a professional player you are already in a highly competitive culture of rivals and critics. I think it is still possible for someone to ignore this competition and struggle for succes and concentrate on creativity and music only, but for professionals it must be hard (everyone has to make a living after all). Staying away from this competition is one of the benefits of being a hobbyist player. Sorry for an off-topic.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:29 pm

eno wrote:
Adrian Allan wrote:a discussion of what constitutes real talent in a furiously competitive classical guitar world with so few opportunities, even for the really gifted.
Right to the point, and that is what I don't like in the CG world and try to stay away from. For me music is only about beauty. Competition it totally irrelevant to beauty. I work in the industry and see enough competition, music for me is a getaway frorm this world of human competition driven by survival instincts. Unfortunately if you are a professional player you are already in a highly competitive culture of rivals and critics. I think it is still possible for someone to ignore this competition and struggle for succes and concentrate on creativity and music only, but for professionals it must be hard (everyone has to make a living after all). Staying away from this competition is one of the benefits of being a hobbyist player. Sorry for an off-topic.
For the same reason, John Williams has always refused to be on a jury in a guitar competition.

I can see both sides to this; music should not be like sport with a winner and loser, but human nature is obsessed with hierarchies, and they pervade almost every aspect of our lives.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by lucy » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:03 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:I have nothing against Milos and players like him, but I believe that the resentment that follows him around is obviously a result of his success, when compared to the real virtuoso players, who remain unnoticed apart from within the tiny self-referential circle of classical guitarists.
I have myself played classical guitar for many years, have 100s of CDs and have been to countless concerts.

When I first heard Milos play I heard something very different in his approach to the music, compared to many others. This may very well be similar to what you also hear? It seems the difference between us is you judge this playing style as inferior, as far as interpretation goes, and I don't.

It's a bit pointless to say he lacks technical skills, since as has been pointed out earlier he plays the fugue from the 2nd lute suite very well and I might add, he also does a fine version (imo) of the Ginastera sonata, as well as Rodrigo's Invocacion y Danza. Both of which he has performed at The Wigmore Hall. Hardly, the easiest pieces in the repertoire.

I take your point that he has attracted an enormous amount of attention and is also marketed aggressively, to the exclusion of many other virtuoso players. However, this is not a bad thing, in general, even if it is for some of his competitors. It helps raise the profile of the CG and as Mark said, Richard Clayderman hardly spoilt the career of Daniel Barenboim - not that I would put Milos is the same category as Clayderman!! He was nowhere near a virtuoso pianist.

However, as Stephen pointed out, Milos has not had the test of time, but nor have any of the others of his generation yet. It's an open question who will survive this, if any.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Sat Apr 08, 2017 6:21 pm

lucy wrote:
Adrian Allan wrote:I have nothing against Milos and players like him, but I believe that the resentment that follows him around is obviously a result of his success, when compared to the real virtuoso players, who remain unnoticed apart from within the tiny self-referential circle of classical guitarists.
I have myself played classical guitar for many years, have 100s of CDs and have been to countless concerts.

When I first heard Milos play I heard something very different in his approach to the music, compared to many others. This may very well be similar to what you also hear? It seems the difference between us is you judge this playing style as inferior, as far as interpretation goes, and I don't.

It's a bit pointless to say he lacks technical skills, since as has been pointed out earlier he plays the fugue from the 2nd lute suite very well and I might add, he also does a fine version (imo) of the Ginastera sonata, as well as Rodrigo's Invocacion y Danza. Both of which he has performed at The Wigmore Hall. Hardly, the easiest pieces in the repertoire.

I take your point that he has attracted an enormous amount of attention and is also marketed aggressively, to the exclusion of many other virtuoso players. However, this is not a bad thing, in general, even if it is for some of his competitors. It helps raise the profile of the CG and as Mark said, Richard Clayderman hardly spoilt the career of Daniel Barenboim - not that I would put Milos is the same category as Clayderman!! He was nowhere near a virtuoso pianist.

However, as Stephen pointed out, Milos has not had the test of time, but nor have any of the others of his generation yet. It's an open question who will survive this, if any.
I don't think it is correct to say that just because he plays Invocation and Danza, he is right at the top of his trade. I play that piece as well, but I play it several levels below that of the greats.

Please watch the video I embedded. The third movement of La Catedral is pure virtuosity, of a level that places Perroy in the elite level of guitar players. There is nothing on Youtube with that level of fluid virtuosity played by Milos, and this is precisely where the resentment lies and the belief that Milos is a phenomenon of marketing rather than pure, unadulterated talent.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by eno » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:27 pm

There is always a market for pop-classical music and some musicians with classical training will always play there, there is nothing wrong with that. Of course the pop-classical players will enjoy a popualrity, auidience and revenues comparable or sometimes way exceeding the top-notch pure-classical players. But it's not a fair comparison because these are two totally different markets and auditories and the standards are wery different too.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Mr Kite » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:29 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:I have nothing against Milos and players like him, but I believe that the resentment that follows him around is obviously a result of his success, when compared to the real virtuoso players, who remain unnoticed apart from within the tiny self-referential circle of classical guitarists.
That's got to be right, but as far as I am concerned it's an attitude problem on the part of those doing the resenting. The world doesn't owe it to guitar players to organize itself so that success is driven only by virtuosity and musicality. It doesn't do the equivalent for anyone else - there are practically no fields of endeavour where success only depends on talent in the pure sense. If you want to get a book published, for example, it isn't enough to write a great book. If you want to progress up the corporate ladder, or up the ranks of a profession, you have to make sure you're visible to the right people and are seen in the right light. Why would guitar be any different? Why should it be? I don't want to go all Adam Smith on you, but the record companies are in it for the money, ditto the radio stations and streaming services and all the rest. Guitar players can't gang up and insist that people are only allowed to decide how to spend their money based on talent. It's up to the consumer, and the fact is that they (we!) are influenced by many things, which means that everyone upstream is bound to try to influence them in many ways. It's pointless railing against that.
Adrian Allan wrote:Please watch the video I embedded. The third movement of La Catedral is pure virtuosity, of a level that places Perroy in the elite level of guitar players. There is nothing on Youtube with that level of fluid virtuosity played by Milos, and this is precisely where the resentment lies and the belief that Milos is a phenomenon of marketing rather than pure, unadulterated talent.
I'm sure nobody believes that he is a phenomenon of pure unadulterated talent (well maybe his mum does). Probably no-one is, in the sense that even the very gifted do some marketing.

The video won't play, at least not on my computer.

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:30 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:Mark, like me (!) you are too young; I think you'd find that with such a track record of dining out in the 1950s-60s you'd be more likely to find somebody subtly demonstrating their urbanity by having the old boy on the gramophone in the background.
Yes of course - I'm a generation misplaced at least - and now I'm not sure what my point was except that marketing and hype were in my mind - I get the feeling that AS knew very well how to use both. Certainly every time I saw Segovia the house was packed to the rafters (mostly with very old amateur guitarists obviously).
Stephen Kenyon wrote:One might add that in Segovia's time, at least his earlier career, it would be probably fair to say that there was a degree of intellectual cultural force in Segovia's place in the musical world. I would suggest that since his decease, that would be more limited, to his work as pioneer, ambassador and figurehead. As is often noted, his aesthetic priorities remained largely unchanged from his youth ...
Agreed.
Stephen Kenyon wrote:I had a very pleasant train ride in the company of the violinist Trevor Williams ... A couple of years later I had the chance to play a Bach fugue to him (the G minor sonata one) in a lesson.
Now there's a teaser - what do you recall of that lesson?

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