[Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

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Adrian Allan
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:33 pm

eno wrote:There is always a market for pop-classical music and some musicians with classical training will always play there, there is nothing wrong with that. Of course the pop-classical players will enjoy a popualrity, auidience and revenues comparable or sometimes way exceeding the top-notch pure-classical players. But it's not a fair comparison because these are two totally different markets and auditories and the standards are wery different too.
Agreed, but is not Milos marketed as a pure classical player who happens to also happens to have released a Beatles album?

I think that somebody in the field you mention would be Katherine Jenkins. Have a look on some opera forums - she is classed as joke by the opera community purists, but she does release albums of "the greatest hits from operas taken out of context", if you know what I mean. A pretty face with a popular appeal, but not on a level with Anna Netrebko.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:39 pm

Mr Kite wrote:
Adrian Allan wrote:I have nothing against Milos and players like him, but I believe that the resentment that follows him around is obviously a result of his success, when compared to the real virtuoso players, who remain unnoticed apart from within the tiny self-referential circle of classical guitarists.
That's got to be right, but as far as I am concerned it's an attitude problem on the part of those doing the resenting. The world doesn't owe it to guitar players to organize itself so that success is driven only by virtuosity and musicality. It doesn't do the equivalent for anyone else - there are practically no fields of endeavour where success only depends on talent in the pure sense. If you want to get a book published, for example, it isn't enough to write a great book. If you want to progress up the corporate ladder, or up the ranks of a profession, you have to make sure you're visible to the right people and are seen in the right light. Why would guitar be any different? Why should it be? I don't want to go all Adam Smith on you, but the record companies are in it for the money, ditto the radio stations and streaming services and all the rest. Guitar players can't gang up and insist that people are only allowed to decide how to spend their money based on talent. It's up to the consumer, and the fact is that they (we!) are influenced by many things, which means that everyone upstream is bound to try to influence them in many ways. It's pointless railing against that.
Adrian Allan wrote:Please watch the video I embedded. The third movement of La Catedral is pure virtuosity, of a level that places Perroy in the elite level of guitar players. There is nothing on Youtube with that level of fluid virtuosity played by Milos, and this is precisely where the resentment lies and the belief that Milos is a phenomenon of marketing rather than pure, unadulterated talent.
I'm sure nobody believes that he is a phenomenon of pure unadulterated talent (well maybe his mum does). Probably no-one is, in the sense that even the very gifted do some marketing.

The video won't play, at least not on my computer.
Ok here is the url - please let me know what you think

https://youtu.be/K9_ZPHpsv1s
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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:54 pm

duplicate
Last edited by Stephen Kenyon on Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:55 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Stephen Kenyon wrote:I had a very pleasant train ride in the company of the violinist Trevor Williams ... A couple of years later I had the chance to play a Bach fugue to him (the G minor sonata one) in a lesson.
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:Now there's a teaser - what do you recall of that lesson?
Mostly that he thought I had made a very 'classical' interpretation, which from his overall background I took to mean not terribly expressive. I was still in the thing of trying to make it rather like a HIP (historically informed performance) albeit on a modern guitar! Probably the Fischer then I think. Other than that I don't have a particular details in my memory ... it was I think 1991.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:56 pm

dupe
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by eno » Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:24 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:Agreed, but is not Milos marketed as a pure classical player who happens to also happens to have released a Beatles album?

I think that somebody in the field you mention would be Katherine Jenkins. Have a look on some opera forums - she is classed as joke by the opera community purists, but she does release albums of "the greatest hits from operas taken out of context", if you know what I mean. A pretty face with a popular appeal, but not on a level with Anna Netrebko.
Well, yes, there are pop-classical-only musicians, and as I said, the standards and expectations in this market are very different. Pop-classical listeners do not have a capacity to appreciate the high-standard level of top classical players so they are not looking for that, on the other hand, appearance, pretty look and charisma matters a lot in this market. But there are some musicians that play in both fields and can sometimes succeed in pop more than in classical. Karadaglić just happens to be one of those. That does not mean their success in pop-classical should be extended to the classical field. And there are cases when high-level classical performers cross the borders and play popular music, for example Brouwer playing Beatles which he did beautifully without compromising classical standards, and Takemitsu wrote beautiful interpretations of Beatles.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by goingeasy » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:05 pm

Gary Macleod wrote:There's a recording of him on iTunes playing among other things the fugue from Bachs lute suite no. 2 . This is a hard piece, it's music of the highest level and he plays it live really really well. I can see how people hate the hype but that's the marketing world and comes with the territory, don't let it detract from what he has achieved. I feel really sorry that he has injured his hand after all the hard work he's put in and everything he has achieved, I hope he makes a full recovery.
An lets not forget that he has won at least one well known classical guitar competition.

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by goingeasy » Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:11 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Adrian Allan wrote:Not impressed. A masterclass is not teaching children - it should be conservatory level pupils at least.
But I wonder would he be comfortable teaching that level; some may outshine him in ability and knowledge. That is the sad truth.
Adrian, you and I both attended a summer school more years ago than we care to think, and like all summer schools much of the teaching was in what is popularly known in that situation as a masterclass. Many of those learners were nowhere near the players in this video. While it is probably the case that there is in the strict sense a tendency to devalue the currency of the term masterclass by using it when either the tutor or the players are not really 'masters', nobody is in a position to write laws about who gets to qualify in either role. As long as nobody is fooled and robbed of their cash or seriously misled into life-changing decisions, I'd say its harmless to use the term in this way.
For what its worth, the players were actually well chosen for the situation, which was an event put on by a local music education provider (Bristol Plays Music ; = BPM!) and were presumably about the best they had on offer - rising Grade 7 & 8 at those ages - about 17 - is perfectly reasonable; and if it helps generate a sense of pride, commitment and engagement not just with the players but with the younger audience looking up to them to call it a masterclass, I'd do the same thing myself.
Really good points were stated here. Thanks.

Mr Kite

Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Mr Kite » Sun Apr 09, 2017 10:11 am

Adrian Allan wrote:
Mr Kite wrote:The video won't play, at least not on my computer.
Ok here is the url - please let me know what you think

https://youtu.be/K9_ZPHpsv1s
Thanks. Very impressive, for sure - and very interesting to see what level he was at at that age. I can imagine the exhilaration of being in the audience and feeling that you were witnessing the emergence of a future great. Whether he should be called elite on the back of that showing is not really for me to say, but FWIW I thought it was a young man's performance, full of bravado but not without subtlety, and sublime in places.

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by lucy » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:16 am

Adrian Allan wrote:I have nothing against Milos and players like him, but I believe that the resentment that follows him around is obviously a result of his success, when compared to the real virtuoso players, who remain unnoticed apart from within the tiny self-referential circle of classical guitarists.
lucy wrote:I have myself played classical guitar for many years, have 100s of CDs and have been to countless concerts.

When I first heard Milos play I heard something very different in his approach to the music, compared to many others. This may very well be similar to what you also hear? It seems the difference between us is you judge this playing style as inferior, as far as interpretation goes, and I don't.

It's a bit pointless to say he lacks technical skills, since as has been pointed out earlier he plays the fugue from the 2nd lute suite very well and I might add, he also does a fine version (imo) of the Ginastera sonata, as well as Rodrigo's Invocacion y Danza. Both of which he has performed at The Wigmore Hall. Hardly, the easiest pieces in the repertoire.
Adrian Allan wrote:I don't think it is correct to say that just because he plays Invocation and Danza, he is right at the top of his trade. I play that piece as well, but I play it several levels below that of the greats.
Actually, I didn't say that because he could play that Rodrigo piece and the Ginastera sonata, it meant he was a great player. The relevant point was that he has performed them at The Wigmore Hall, with the latter broadcast live on Radio 3.
Adrian Allan wrote:Please watch the video I embedded. The third movement of La Catedral is pure virtuosity, of a level that places Perroy in the elite level of guitar players. There is nothing on Youtube with that level of fluid virtuosity played by Milos, and this is precisely where the resentment lies and the belief that Milos is a phenomenon of marketing rather than pure, unadulterated talent.
So, it appears you've never heard Milos play in concert yourself. You're basing your judgement on a bunch of perhaps overly-slick videos aimed at marketing him to a general audience. Leaving the marketing aside, I'm still interested in what it is about Milos' playing that you deem so inadequate, apart from your view of his technical skills.

I've listened to the Perroy video and I agree that is very impressive, with machine-like accuracy, as well as good phrasing and control. However, I would question whether that kind of technical fluency is necessarily what it's all about. Perhaps, it is for you, but my take on this is that any professional player needs a minimum level of technical skill, and that skill level required is very high. Although it doesn't have to be at the "John Williams level", it needs to good enough to easily communicate the music successfully.

Speaking of John Williams, I think his technical skills are still unmatched, however, if this forum is anything to go by, most people prefer Bream, even though his technique was not at the level of JW. As you probably know, Bream often made many mistakes in his live performances. I have to say, such is the preoccupation with flawless technique, these days, I seriously wonder whether Bream would succeed today. I really hope I'm wrong about that!! For me, it's more about the qualitative, than the quantitative.

By the way, I watched a Perroy interview too and he mentioned he used to be afraid of playing easy pieces, because when you play something many other people can play, you really do have to be a great musician. Evidently, Milos was not afraid of that. Whether he pulls them off successfully, or not, he evidently took a major risk by performing certain pieces, going by the vitriol it seems to have invited.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:38 am

Hi Lucy

There is a video of Milos playing HVL Prelude No.1 on Youtube and he messes up the rhythms completely in the open E minor section. And this is not a slick video, but a live recording; it really made me question his judgement. In addition to this, there are videos of him playing Recuerdos and the tremolo is quite uneven. My mum watched him playing Blackbird on the Sunday Politics show a few weeks ago and rang me up to say that the young man who played guitar seemed strained and hesitant. My mum is not a musician, but she noticed this.

As I have nothing personally against Milos, and I will not link to the videos in question to further make my case, but you did ask me to provide examples. All of the above can be found on Youtube.

As I said earlier, he is better than me, so it's not jealousy at all. I just think that he is not quite up there among the very best, and it sort of annoys me that the public are being sold something through the power of marketing.

And it might be worth adding that Milos is on the DG label, by reputation the most prestigious in the world, whereas in terms of the other players I have alluded to, Ana Vidovic and Perroy are on the budet Naxos label, and I don't think that Marcin Dylla even has a record deal yet.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Adrian Allan » Sun Apr 09, 2017 11:47 am

Mr Kite wrote:
Adrian Allan wrote:
Mr Kite wrote:The video won't play, at least not on my computer.
Ok here is the url - please let me know what you think

https://youtu.be/K9_ZPHpsv1s
Thanks. Very impressive, for sure - and very interesting to see what level he was at at that age. I can imagine the exhilaration of being in the audience and feeling that you were witnessing the emergence of a future great. Whether he should be called elite on the back of that showing is not really for me to say, but FWIW I thought it was a young man's performance, full of bravado but not without subtlety, and sublime in places.
There were sections where there could be better phrasing, for sure, but as you say, it had a very youthful vitality to it. But in terms of brilliant playing and virtuoso projection, it was right there among the very best, and we are talking in the Barrueco, Williams league, as you can see for yourself.

Yes, it was great to be there and there was an audible "gasp" when he finished from the audience. The next week we saw a young girl with a very large guitar (loaned to her by John Feeley) by the name of Ana Vidovic, who played absolutely faultlessly, so it was a fairly memorable fortnight.
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by lucy » Sun Apr 09, 2017 12:25 pm

Adrian Allan wrote:Hi Lucy

There is a video of Milos playing HVL Prelude No.1 on Youtube and he messes up the rhythms completely in the open E minor section. And this is not a slick video, but a live recording; it really made me question his judgement. In addition to this, there are videos of him playing Recuerdos and the tremolo is quite uneven. My mum watched him playing Blackbird on the Sunday Politics show a few weeks ago and rang me up to say that the young man who played guitar seemed strained and hesitant. My mum is not a musician, but she noticed this.
Thanks for these examples Adrian. I'm familiar with Milos' version of HVL Prelude No. 1 and I have to say I was rather startled myself when I first heard it. I know what you mean. His interpretation doesn't owe much to the usual approach to this piece. However, I then decided to take a step back and attempt to hear it how I might have done if I'd never heard the piece before. Probably impossible, I know! One way of looking at it is Milos' version has more of the traditional South American sound to it. It's a lot more fiery and uneven than a classical prelude is usually played. Just trying to think out of the box! Who's to say exactly how any piece should be played anyway? I don't mind it now.

I agree his tremolo is not his strongest suit, especially in RDLA. However, there are other professional players whose tremolo is not particularly good. It seems to vary a lot, but a good tremolo may be more common, amongst younger players, with improved pedagogy in music schools and general rise in technical standards?

I'm afraid it's not fair to cite the example on The Sunday Politics. He already had that hand injury by then. The original injury goes back well over a year. There was actually a thread on here about it.

I suppose for me, I'm willing to overlook certain aspects of his playing that I'm not sure about, because when I've heard him play in concert, it's always been a powerful experience. Personally, I find his playing very engaging. To me, it sounds very natural and has a lot of subtlety in both phrasing and dynamics. I do seem to be in the minority of classical guitarists, who actually enjoy listening to him play, though. Not sure what that says about me, or the CG world in general!
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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by brooks » Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:53 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:

But Bream's a guitarist. He doesn't count and I notice that he speaks of fooling the audience.
I guess you're right. Weighted beside what you hear (or rather don't hear) at wine and cheese parties and the overheard comment of a random anonymous musician, what do Bream's opinions signify? Less than nothing surely, because "Bream's a guitarist" and has spoken of "fooling the audience". Hey, maybe he's fooled us all into admiring his own playing! The rascal! I'll have to re-evaluate both Segovia and Bream now.

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Re: [Youtube] Miloš Karadaglić Master Class

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:44 pm

brooks wrote:
Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
But Bream's a guitarist. He doesn't count and I notice that he speaks of fooling the audience.
I guess you're right. Weighted beside what you hear (or rather don't hear) at wine and cheese parties and the overheard comment of a random anonymous musician, what do Bream's opinions signify? Less than nothing surely, because "Bream's a guitarist" and has spoken of "fooling the audience". Hey, maybe he's fooled us all into admiring his own playing! The rascal! I'll have to re-evaluate both Segovia and Bream now.
I was alluding to the non guitar-playing public - so yes obviously Bream's opinion in that context is irrelevant and, whilst I chuckled at your ironic retort, surely the social context is part of what's being discussed?

Stephen's points to me are well taken (I confess that I do often take a rather whimsical approach to these discussions) and yet I still feel that I live in a world where, for most, the disappearance of the classical guitar would go unnoticed.

I do agree that JB's a rascal - that one picture with the cheeky eyebrow (from "A Life on the Road") is enough to give the game away. Now going to listen to Miloš - find out what all the fuss is about.

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