"Plectrodedo" technique

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markodarko
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by markodarko » Mon Nov 21, 2016 2:11 pm

3Sunny3 wrote:My dear colleagues, the Plectrodedo book is now on sale via Amazon.
If you have a professional interest in this book then I think you should really make that clear to everyone. What is your association with the book / Carlos Reyes?
Negative, I am a meat popsicle.

ronjazz
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by ronjazz » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:13 pm

West African guitarists, especially in Mali, use the index finger flexion and extension for their lines; some are quite adept, and have managed to make both strokes sound the same.
Lester Devoe Flamenco Negra
Lester Devoe Flamenco Blanca
Aparicio Flamenco Blanca with RMC pickup
Bartolex 7-string with RMC pickup
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3Sunny3
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by 3Sunny3 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:25 pm

I mentioned the plectrodedo book because you can get a better explanation about this technique in order you might be clear the differences between plectrodedo and dedillo. This techniques have some similarities but they have big differences too... Sometimes we should have more information so that one can make a better opinion.

Luis_Br
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by Luis_Br » Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:34 am

Just another view on the topic.
Brazilian guitarist Alexandre Atmarama also uses a lot all fingers pluck to both directions. He calls it imalt (for i,m,a+alternation).
He also advocates it is not exactly the same as used by old vihuelists or Yamashita etc., because he makes extensive use of several combinations not commonly used before.
He already published a method on that, including several exercises, studies and pieces he composed using the technique. He is a great composer for the guitar with some really nice pieces. He uses the alternation with a lot of creativity. For example, he does not only alternate a single finger, he uses the alternation to play repeated chords too. As we can notice in his view, It is not only about speed, but also about articulation and sound effect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7EVaprWCWE
More videos in his channel...

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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by 3Sunny3 » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:22 am

I saw the video and what l reach to see about it is that he play chords of three or maybe four notes in which the fingers move at the same time in flexión and extension ...avoiding play them just pulling the strings in block or only with a finger by playing in flexion-extension. It's a way to play chords.
Compound plectrodedo is totally different check these links please
https://youtu.be/lB3Iyba10rU
https://youtu.be/p-wKnwdnLCI
https://youtu.be/nVJh6RbVkzU :merci:

Luis_Br
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by Luis_Br » Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:05 pm

3Sunny3 wrote:I saw the video and what l reach to see about it is that he play chords of three or maybe four notes in which the fingers move at the same time in flexión and extension ...avoiding play them just pulling the strings in block or only with a finger by playing in flexion-extension. It's a way to play chords.
Compound plectrodedo is totally different check these links please
https://youtu.be/lB3Iyba10rU
https://youtu.be/p-wKnwdnLCI
https://youtu.be/nVJh6RbVkzU :merci:
Ok, but he also uses flexion/extension in with single fingers too, like in tremolo and other passages it eventually requires, for easier fingering or some desired articulation effect (there is a demonstration of tremolo with single finger).
I disagree the technique has better sound result. It certainly does not, it doesn't allow nail/flesh combinations for color control. Youtube is not a good way to judge, but I think Atmarama has a reasonable consistent and robust sound in both directions but we still notice it is not totally even. Reyes demonstrations certainly are not from a good classical guitar sound technique of robustness and round sound, it looks like more from a pop/flamenco background. Atmarama wisely uses it for articulation effects in musical situations this effect fits well.
To me the sound quality control is the main problem and the reason most players do not adopt the dedillo as a regular playing technique for every situation. It is more like an extension to regular technique for special articulation effects or in passages that wouldn't be playable with regular technique, like used by Yamashita, Boucher and others. For Reyes to defend the use of the plectrodedo he claims, he first needs to learn how to get a first class sound out of it or maybe work on more careful video samples.

3Sunny3
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by 3Sunny3 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:03 pm

:bravo: Okay we are not criticizing any guitar player Technique, the sound of plectrodedo is a good sound... why?
You know this is a matter of science.
Force is equal mass times acceleration.
The plectrodedo use the middle Finger, the biggest finger, thereby the biggest mass. It use the MCF joints of the 4 finger (index, midle, ring and little) these joints are using a greater amount of muscles
more than that one that use just one finger and maybe the proximal interphalangeal joint ...this is a psysiological principle which says that if you use more muscle mass you will get faster and stronger
And with plectrodedo technique you use many joints at the same time even the wrist, elbow and shoulder. Regarding to the acceleration the plectrodedo technique accelerates from one inch or more far of the string....The timbre of the produced sound is very special not produced in other techniques never. There is a better explanation in the plectrodedo book. You can watch this videos on YouTube it is good enough proof of the good sound, high velocity, ect.
https://youtu.be/wKwV6svElKQ
https://youtu.be/hS2ga5jsjDA

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guitarrista
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by guitarrista » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:24 pm

3Sunny3 wrote:Okay we are not criticizing any guitar player Technique, the sound of plectrodedo is a good sound... why?
You know this is a matter of science.
Force is equal mass times acceleration.
The plectrodedo use the middle Finger, the biggest finger, thereby the biggest mass. It use the MCF joints of the 4 finger (index, midle, ring and little) these joints are using a greater amount of muscles [...]
Oh come on, let's not do the scientific-sounding gobbledygook arguments.. what you say does not help your cause. Biggest mass? Even if the tiny difference somehow mattered if anything that would be an impediment to greater acceleration (a = F/m) since you seem to focus on that greater acceleration in the bulk of your argument. But of course if acceleration is all that really made a "good sound", might as well use a big beautiful hammer and swing as hard as we can. Just please drop the "science" argument, it is really not helping you as it makes no sense even at the most cursory examination.
Konstantin
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1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

3Sunny3
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by 3Sunny3 » Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:40 pm

Wacht the videos it's enough if the science it's not enough for you ...you can not deny the high Virtuoso of the Carlos Reyes.

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guitarrista
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by guitarrista » Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:54 pm

3Sunny3 wrote:Wacht the videos
The ridiculous sales tactics are turning me off; still as I said you would do well to abandon the preposterous "it's science" argument and just rely on demonstrations, as in the videos. I say 'you' as it is pretty clear that you are involved with this project/Reyes somehow, even if you are shy to respond to markodarko's earlier direct inquiry about your professional interest in this.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

3Sunny3
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by 3Sunny3 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:30 am

It's obvious that you just want to talk about something that you don't know and you don't want to know. Why don't you get the idea? l am sure that any normal person would understand, even a person that isn't a guitar player. What is your interest about things out of plectrodedo technique topic. If l mention the book of plectrodedo is because right there you can learn about it.
.. l don't want to sell a book to you or any other person. You can not talk about something that you don't know ...get a book, talk to Carlos Reyes maybe he can give you one free and then if you understand it we can talk about the plectrodedo technique ...l can not longer follow you because this foro has been corrupted for you ...be serious. :bye:

Luis_Br
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by Luis_Br » Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:19 pm

I disgaree Reyes sound is good enough. It is not bad, it is ok, but there are others by far better. I say this from what I hear in the videos you put here. But the quality of them are poor, youtube is not a good way to check this, so it is difficult to make a point, and I agree a may be wrong or simply my taste may be different.

On the physics and mass, I didn't read the book, but the physics you explained quickly here is not correct. No matter which joints you use, the mass is from the whole hand and forearm, depends more on the weight you leave at the point of the guitar you touch with arm and the weight you let it go toward the strings. If you let arm/wrist loose and just pluck the strings, the hand bounces back upwards, as a reaction. So the whole hand/arm mass is going down there when you hold hand down. The weight difference from middle finger and the other fingers are very little compared to hand weight and arm weight you can put over them. The point of the guitar contact and arm weight you put over the fingers is by far the more important mass in the system, so it doesnt matter which finger you use.

I agree sometimes middle finger seems to have louder sound, it happens a lot to students in regular technique, but physically it seems more obvious that the reason is because it is longer than others which helps going deeper down, I can see the person digging more with this finger, it is not related to its mass quantity. Hand poistining is not an easy task, when you get better to one finger, it goes worse to the other.

Another point, is that the string energy of sound is from its release, you are not kicking it, it doesn't move further down when you release it. Use of arm weight or whatever is to make it easier for the player to displace the string, but no matter how much mass you use, the string vibrates from the realese, so it is from its own elasticity and weight, and from the displacement you've given to it, it doesn't matter how much mass you used to displace it. The easier way of displacing further is leting the whole arm mass go there, rather than a simple finger.

Certainly the way you release, the way you let it speed up over the finger, the nail etc. also make a big difference in final sound result, it is not only a matter of simple displacement. It is certainly not an easy task to describe the physics in detail. This last aspects where it seams to me diffcult to get a nice sound with the backwards pluck. I think flesh from regular pluck helps avoiding noise from direct nail contact, and also the nails is not symmetrical, so if you file it well for a regular pluck it won't be as good for the backward one and vice-versa.

Anastas
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by Anastas » Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:09 pm

3Sunny3 wrote:Carlos Reyes wants to share this information with the people who are participating in this forum: a compendium of his 5 Síntesis through this linkage:
http://media.wix.com/ugd/946ed3_4a8a394 ... 4cf9e8.pdf
Thanks for shearing Carlos Reyes and3Sunny3!

Perseus
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by Perseus » Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:54 pm

It is a pity that there isn't yet an English book about the Plectrodedo technique. Trying to read via Google translate some references posted on the Venezuelan sites and videos in Spanish don't help to really comprehend how one can develop this technique.
However, I greatly appreciate Carlos Reyes and his team actions to speak about this technique, I find it very interesting. From the little I understood it has elements from all previous similar methods, but it is a more evolved and organised system. I don't know Spanish to dig further.

guit-box
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Re: "Plectrodedo" technique

Post by guit-box » Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:41 pm


Youtube
Not sure if this has been posted yet since I haven't made it thru the whole topic yet, but this seemed related.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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