What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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georgemarousi
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby georgemarousi » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:01 am

been at both sides, i'd sum up:

if you are serious about CG find a good teacher. millions of reasons.. i rest my case :)
--Classicals--
Paulino Bernabe Especial 2009
Ramirez 1A 1980
Alhambra 7c, 4c
Juan Martinez nr 55 (the return, 2014)
Yamaha cg 110 (first as a kid, late 80's)
--
student again since 2015, to my degree on 2018 (God bless!)

Neil Patrick
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby Neil Patrick » Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:23 am

Classical guitar is the most difficult instrument to learn along with the violin. You would need a "good" teacher, I repeat, "GOOD" teacher with proper technique to guide you. I've seen many young guitarists mess up their RH posture and technique (especially Tirando) from bad teaching method.
A good teacher will also teach you their "secret" techniques that you will never find in any method's books. "A guitarist at any level, is still a student", we always learn new things in guitar, and it will never end.
The question is, "can you learn CG by yourself to become professional?". The answer is "Yes". But getting a teacher will shorten up the process 10 times faster. You're not a millionaire who can sit all day in your house practicing guitar and not worrying about making money. You don't have all the time in the world to learn by yourself.

2handband
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby 2handband » Thu Nov 24, 2016 1:10 pm

Depends on your self analysis skills. I was self taught and went on to be a professional guitarist but I'm also super analytical which was really the secret. Definitely get a good method (i recommend the conservatory tutor) and make very sure you DO WHAT IT SAYS.

The bad news: I've been teaching for years and very few students that I have encountered have the self analysis skills or the discipline to self instruct. Even WITH a teacher they are screwed because they don't have the patience or attention to self correct; the moment they walk out of my studio they just lapse into the same old bad habits and i correct it all over again the following week. Just how it is...

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markodarko
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby markodarko » Thu Nov 24, 2016 2:28 pm

2handband wrote:Depends on your self analysis skills. I was self taught and went on to be a professional guitarist but I'm also super analytical which was really the secret. Definitely get a good method (i recommend the conservatory tutor) and make very sure you DO WHAT IT SAYS.

The bad news: I've been teaching for years and very few students that I have encountered have the self analysis skills or the discipline to self instruct. Even WITH a teacher they are screwed because they don't have the patience or attention to self correct; the moment they walk out of my studio they just lapse into the same old bad habits and i correct it all over again the following week. Just how it is...


^ I can corroborate all of this as it is my experience also.
Negative, I am a meat popsicle.

dtoh
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby dtoh » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:43 am

Neil Patrick wrote:A good teacher will also teach you their "secret" techniques that you will never find in any method's books.


Sounds like a high priest in a primitive tribal society worrying about job security while explaining why they need to perform animal sacrifices.

Seriously there have been almost no posts from teachers which are specifically responsive to the OPs question.

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Larry McDonald
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby Larry McDonald » Fri Nov 25, 2016 5:58 pm

dtoh wrote:
Neil Patrick wrote:A good teacher will also teach you their "secret" techniques that you will never find in any method's books.


Sounds like a high priest in a primitive tribal society worrying about job security while explaining why they need to perform animal sacrifices.

Seriously there have been almost no posts from teachers which are specifically responsive to the OPs question.


Fair enough. Let me examine the first line of the post.

The OP wrote, "I recently bought my first CG, I have Carulli first volume revised by Tersi, I got Parkening Guitar Method...".

Since I am a guitar teacher, I will of course say that you need a guitar teacher. But first, let me point out just two reasons to get a teacher's perspective.

1) Carulli would often finger the down beat with "m", because he thought it was louder sound. This convention is not part of the modern pedagogy, and as a result, most of the right-hand fingering needs to be reconsidered.

2)The Parkening Method (which was written by his jazz playing brother-in-law, if I remember correctly), teaches the old style left hand technique, and not the modern 4th finger approach, and as a result, most of the left-hand fingering needs to be rewritten in the early pieces.

So, there are two significant problems with each of those methods that a competent modern-era teacher would correct within the private lesson. (As an aside, I still think that the Parkening Method is a pretty good method, but needs a teacher to correct to modern standards. His second volume is an excellent collection of intermediate techniques, but not a progressive method, per se.)

All the best,
L. A. McDonald
Dr. Lawrence A. McDonald, D.M.A., Art Kaplan Fellow
Author of The Conservatory Tutor for Guitar
2008 Michael Thames Cd/Br
Royal Conservatory Advanced Guitar Instructor
Royal Conservatory Advanced Theory Instructor

2handband
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby 2handband » Fri Nov 25, 2016 6:21 pm

Larry McDonald wrote:
dtoh wrote:
Neil Patrick wrote:A good teacher will also teach you their "secret" techniques that you will never find in any method's books.


Sounds like a high priest in a primitive tribal society worrying about job security while explaining why they need to perform animal sacrifices.

Seriously there have been almost no posts from teachers which are specifically responsive to the OPs question.


Fair enough. Let me examine the first line of the post.

The OP wrote, "I recently bought my first CG, I have Carulli first volume revised by Tersi, I got Parkening Guitar Method...".

Since I am a guitar teacher, I will of course say that you need a guitar teacher. But first, let me point out just two reasons to get a teacher's perspective.

1) Carulli would often finger the down beat with "m", because he thought it was louder sound. This convention is not part of the modern pedagogy, and as a result, most of the right-hand fingering needs to be reconsidered.

2)The Parkening Method (which was written by his jazz playing brother-in-law, if I remember correctly), teaches the old style left hand technique, and not the modern 4th finger approach, and as a result, most of the left-hand fingering needs to be rewritten in the early pieces.

So, there are two significant problems with each of those methods that a competent modern-era teacher would correct within the private lesson. (As an aside, I still think that the Parkening Method is a pretty good method, but needs a teacher to correct to modern standards. His second volume is an excellent collection of intermediate techniques, but not a progressive method, per se.)

All the best,
L. A. McDonald


Greetings Larry... it's been awhile! I posted an update in my old thread on your method in the "classes" sub the other day.

dtoh
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby dtoh » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:15 pm

Larry McDonald wrote:Fair enough. Let me examine the first line of the post.

The OP wrote, "I recently bought my first CG, I have Carulli first volume revised by Tersi, I got Parkening Guitar Method...".

Since I am a guitar teacher, I will of course say that you need a guitar teacher. But first, let me point out just two reasons to get a teacher's perspective.

1) Carulli would often finger the down beat with "m", because he thought it was louder sound. This convention is not part of the modern pedagogy, and as a result, most of the right-hand fingering needs to be reconsidered.

2)The Parkening Method (which was written by his jazz playing brother-in-law, if I remember correctly), teaches the old style left hand technique, and not the modern 4th finger approach, and as a result, most of the left-hand fingering needs to be rewritten in the early pieces.

So, there are two significant problems with each of those methods that a competent modern-era teacher would correct within the private lesson. (As an aside, I still think that the Parkening Method is a pretty good method, but needs a teacher to correct to modern standards. His second volume is an excellent collection of intermediate techniques, but not a progressive method, per se.)

All the best,
L. A. McDonald


Good points.... but..

1. The OP asked about bad habits that can not be easily rectified. Do these really fall into that category?

2. It seems to me that the examples you cite are really examples of self teaching with the wrong materials. How is that different than learning from an teacher but picking a bad teacher.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I do think there are a lot of people who for various reasons can't or choose not to use a teacher. I think what the OP and others are looking for is not to be told not to do this, but rather advice on how to be most successful and avoid major problems if they are teaching themselves.

I understand the reluctance of teaching professionals to give away free advice, but if any of you out there are feeling generous, your advice and guidance would be very much appreciated.

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AndreiKrylov
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby AndreiKrylov » Fri Nov 25, 2016 10:30 pm

2handband wrote:Depends on your self analysis skills. I was self taught and went on to be a professional guitarist but I'm also super analytical which was really the secret. Definitely get a good method (i recommend the conservatory tutor) and make very sure you DO WHAT IT SAYS.

The bad news: I've been teaching for years and very few students that I have encountered have the self analysis skills or the discipline to self instruct. Even WITH a teacher they are screwed because they don't have the patience or attention to self correct; the moment they walk out of my studio they just lapse into the same old bad habits and i correct it all over again the following week. Just how it is...

Yes, it totally depends from person...
but... I have another bad news for you...
- there are could a lot of bad teachers too... :)
and... some things from methods are non-disputable, but some are disputable.
For example most of methods teach about sitting while playing yet I found that for myself standing is best possible solution. :)
I'd better speak by music...Please listen Andrei Krylov at Spotify, iTunes, Apple Music, Amazon Prime etc. Thanks!

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Larry McDonald
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby Larry McDonald » Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:02 am

dtoh wrote:
Larry McDonald wrote:Fair enough. Let me examine the first line of the post.

The OP wrote, "I recently bought my first CG, I have Carulli first volume revised by Tersi, I got Parkening Guitar Method...".

Since I am a guitar teacher, I will of course say that you need a guitar teacher. But first, let me point out just two reasons to get a teacher's perspective.

1) Carulli would often finger the down beat with "m", because he thought it was louder sound. This convention is not part of the modern pedagogy, and as a result, most of the right-hand fingering needs to be reconsidered.

2)The Parkening Method (which was written by his jazz playing brother-in-law, if I remember correctly), teaches the old style left hand technique, and not the modern 4th finger approach, and as a result, most of the left-hand fingering needs to be rewritten in the early pieces.

So, there are two significant problems with each of those methods that a competent modern-era teacher would correct within the private lesson. (As an aside, I still think that the Parkening Method is a pretty good method, but needs a teacher to correct to modern standards. His second volume is an excellent collection of intermediate techniques, but not a progressive method, per se.)

All the best,
L. A. McDonald


Good points.... but..

1. The OP asked about bad habits that can not be easily rectified. Do these really fall into that category?

2. It seems to me that the examples you cite are really examples of self teaching with the wrong materials. How is that different than learning from an teacher but picking a bad teacher.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but I do think there are a lot of people who for various reasons can't or choose not to use a teacher. I think what the OP and others are looking for is not to be told not to do this, but rather advice on how to be most successful and avoid major problems if they are teaching themselves.

I understand the reluctance of teaching professionals to give away free advice, but if any of you out there are feeling generous, your advice and guidance would be very much appreciated.


For the first point, the Carulli can be fairly easily fixed later on. So no big thing, but why practice it in the first place, and spend time re-training later?
For my second point, the older style left hand technique found in Noad, Parkening and others is not easily fixed because these methods encourage a left-hand pronation as a default position (a counter-clockwise rotation of the wrist), instead of the modern parallel presentation. This can be a deal breaker for the self taught; it almost was for me since I learned to play in the 1970's and '80's. If I could pick one problem to avoid, it would be bent/rotated wrists, in either hand.

Your right, if the student is self teaching, and (s)he unknowingly uses outdated materials, it's not any different than if the teacher is using outdated pedagogy. The best thing about learning from a good instructor is that they can anticipate the student's future difficulties, and nip them in the bud before the student has real trouble advancing.

So, to more fully answer the OP's questions regarding bad habits, some can be avoided by...

Keep the tuners on the headstock of the guitar level with the eyes.
Keep your shoulders over your hips.
Keep your wrists straight.
Curl all of your fingers like you are preparing to do a chin-up.
Both hands are in the same basic shape since the mechanics of the hands are the same for each. It's just that the left-hand is upside down.
The right fore-arm should be resting before the elbow and not on the bicep.
The left-hand fingers should be in the same shape regardless of whether they are powered up on the strings or in "hovering mode" above.
Study the right-hand first; it begins to go on autopilot around the beginning of the third week of study. Your r-h habits are formed first.
Only practice when you can concentrate. Don't practice inattentive mistakes.
Sit forward on the chair so that the lower right bout of the guitar does not rest on the seat.
Frame the hands in such a way the body will recognise that it can access the intrinsic muscles in the hands, such as the lumbricals and the interosseus, instead of the large muscle groups in the forearm.

I could go on... and on...

These convensions are pretty standard and are by no means complete. But they should be adapted to the student, which is incumbant upon the teacher. For example, those students with long arms may need to hold the guitar at a 45 degree angle away from the body.

Oh, and by the way, none of this is "secret sauce". All this info has been posted and reposted on Delcamp many times, and in guitar methods published in this millenium. The original question was a very broad one, and most teachers can't take the time to make long, detailed responses, and counter-responses. But I'm off tonight so what the heck.

All the best,
L.A. McDonald
Dr. Lawrence A. McDonald, D.M.A., Art Kaplan Fellow
Author of The Conservatory Tutor for Guitar
2008 Michael Thames Cd/Br
Royal Conservatory Advanced Guitar Instructor
Royal Conservatory Advanced Theory Instructor

dtoh
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby dtoh » Sun Nov 27, 2016 11:00 am

Larry,
Good stuff. Thanks. BTW - I'm self teaching and a lot of the other stuff you have posted has been very useful. Nothing against teachers, but I'm on the road 330 days a year which makes it a challenge to schedule lessons.

Oh and one other thing. It seems to me the wrist rotation problem (at least in the LH) results in part from the fact that the muscles in the LH (lumbricals and the interosseus) are not developed so rotating the wrist is kind of a cheat that makes it possible to fret in the correct (at the fret) position. This could probably be avoided if beginning students only practiced in the higher positions.

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Hany Hayek
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby Hany Hayek » Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:42 pm

Larry McDonald wrote:
dtoh wrote:
Neil Patrick wrote:A good teacher will also teach you their "secret" techniques that you will never find in any method's books.


Sounds like a high priest in a primitive tribal society worrying about job security while explaining why they need to perform animal sacrifices.

Seriously there have been almost no posts from teachers which are specifically responsive to the OPs question.


Fair enough. Let me examine the first line of the post.

The OP wrote, "I recently bought my first CG, I have Carulli first volume revised by Tersi, I got Parkening Guitar Method...".

Since I am a guitar teacher, I will of course say that you need a guitar teacher. But first, let me point out just two reasons to get a teacher's perspective.

1) Carulli would often finger the down beat with "m", because he thought it was louder sound. This convention is not part of the modern pedagogy, and as a result, most of the right-hand fingering needs to be reconsidered.

2)The Parkening Method (which was written by his jazz playing brother-in-law, if I remember correctly), teaches the old style left hand technique, and not the modern 4th finger approach, and as a result, most of the left-hand fingering needs to be rewritten in the early pieces.

So, there are two significant problems with each of those methods that a competent modern-era teacher would correct within the private lesson. (As an aside, I still think that the Parkening Method is a pretty good method, but needs a teacher to correct to modern standards. His second volume is an excellent collection of intermediate techniques, but not a progressive method, per se.)

All the best,
L. A. McDonald


Now I can say -after all-I have some analytic skills.
Yes, these two methods were not working. I found that out in a week time. I am a little stubborn, but I do read the post here and appreciate all comments.
I switched to Sagregas. I found that I was not learning to damp strings. Then again to Delcamp D01, which I find quite nice. I am already in Polyphony and I am almost going through a piece a day. Now my left hand knows where all the first position notes are.
I play daily an hour on the mandolin and an hour on the guitar and I have no problem switching instruments.
I still try to play Carulli. I am playing his valtzer in C. Nice music, don't have to be too technical.

Quique Castillo
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby Quique Castillo » Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:53 pm

I believe one of the hardest things without a teacher is figuring out where around the neck you're going to make a chord or hit a specified note, using the wrong part of the neck to make a left hand position is going to complicate a piece a lot more.

Watching videos has helped me a lot with this.

Nice day to everyone!

Quique

dihang94
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby dihang94 » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:07 pm

That would require you to define what is a bad habit. For me, my definition of bad habit would be habits that does not lead to efficient playing, and this could mean a lot of things. For example, bouncing or swaying wrist is definitely a bad habit as it takes away the stability and accuracy of your right hand playing. HOWEVER, if you intentionally bounce your wrist to serve a specific purpose, such as to play faster chords or arpeggio, then that would be a TECHNIQUE.

tl;dr - all the bad habits anyone could think of if you don't know what you are doing.

Joe de V
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Re: What bad habits can I develop without a teacher

Postby Joe de V » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:21 pm

Students Beware! There are many Excellent CG tutors/teachers and also a variety of Guitar Teachers advertising as teachers of all types of guitar music. I could think of several so call "All Types of Guitar" teachers that cannot teach a dog to eat meat!
Good Teachers of CG are worth the expense if you can arrange your budget to take at least 2 classes each month. It will accelerate your learning process as well as inspire you to continue your studies and appreciation for the music for CG.
If finding a good CG teacher is not possible then you will have to try out learning by yourself in a very slow process but worth the effort.
If you can sight read music you already have an advantage as a start. Like you, I learned to sight read as a child at a Music Academy learning the violin.In my early 70's I chose to start learning the CG and my sight reading help me in progressing a little bit faster. I have accumulated several volumes of methods for learning the CG. The two volumes that have help me the most are "Shearer's Classical Guitar Technique" and David Braid's
"Play Classical Guitar". Both of these volumes are available at the Amazon's Web site. Good Luck


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