Sor studies

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fralexis
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Sor studies

Post by fralexis » Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:22 pm

Just a quick question about the Sor studies, the Segovia edition. Are the studies in order of difficulty or more randomly ordered? Thanks1
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Tom Poore
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Re: Sor studies

Post by Tom Poore » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:13 pm

They’re kinda sorta in order—easier at the start, harder toward the end. But none are beginner pieces. Indeed, some are finger busters. Segovia intended them as a collection for advanced players. Also be aware that there are some discrepancies between Segovia’s edition and the originals. Personally, when I play any study in the Segovia collection, I check it against the facsimile of the original publication. You can find them right here on Delcamp.

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fralexis
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Re: Sor studies

Post by fralexis » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:17 pm

Thanks. My teacher just started me on them. He said it is time to begin Sor. You are right. Even the first one is a bit of a finger buster!
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EricKatz
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Re: Sor studies

Post by EricKatz » Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:18 pm

In his edition of the 20 Sor studies, Jean Francois Delcamp uses this grading (D05 = first intermediate level):

Etude opus 6 n°8, en do majeur, Segovia n°1 - D06
Exercice opus 35 n°13, en do majeur, Segovia n°2 - D04
Etude opus 6 n°2, en la majeur, Segovia n°3 - D05
Etude opus 6 n°1, en ré majeur, Segovia n°4 - D05
Exercice opus 35 n°22, en si mineur, Segovia n°5 - D04
Exercice opus 35 n°17, en ré majeur, Segovia n°6 - D04
Leçon opus 31 n°21, en fa majeur, Segovia n°7 - D05
Leçon opus 31 n°16, en ré mineur, Segovia n°8 - D06
Leçon opus 31 n°20, en la majeur, Segovia n°9 - D06
Leçon opus 31 n°19, en la majeur, Segovia n°10 - D07
Etude opus 6 n°3, en mi majeur, Segovia n°11 - D07
Etude opus 6 n°6, en la majeur, Segovia n°12 - D07
Etude opus 6 n°9, en ré mineur, Segovia n°13 - D06
Etude opus 6 n°12, en la majeur, Segovia n°14 - D07
Exercice opus 35 n°16, en ré mineur, Segovia n°15 - D07
Etude opus 29 n°23, en sol majeur, Segovia n°16 - D08
Etude opus 6 n°11, en mi mineur, Segovia n°17 - D07
Etude opus 29 n°22, en mib majeur, Segovia n°18 - D08
Etude opus 29 n°13, en sib majeur, Segovia n°19 - D09
Etude opus 29 n°17, en do majeur, Segovia n°20 - D08

JohnB
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Re: Sor studies

Post by JohnB » Fri Dec 02, 2016 4:58 pm

fralexis wrote:Thanks. My teacher just started me on them. He said it is time to begin Sor. You are right. Even the first one is a bit of a finger buster!
I've always been puzzled by the Sor/Segovia #1 being the very first of the collection as IMO it needs quite a lot of skill and control to play well.
Hermanos Conde 1968, Stephen Frith 2007 "Guijoso"

Luis_Br
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Re: Sor studies

Post by Luis_Br » Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:01 am

I didn't have time to search the forum now, but there is an old topic here where I posted a dificulty level classification of all Sor and Giuliani studies, made by a famous Brazilian teacher here.

Dustin McKinney
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Re: Sor studies

Post by Dustin McKinney » Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:34 am

Eric de Vries wrote:In his edition of the 20 Sor studies, Jean Francois Delcamp uses this grading (D05 = first intermediate level):

Etude opus 6 n°8, en do majeur, Segovia n°1 - D06
Exercice opus 35 n°13, en do majeur, Segovia n°2 - D04
Etude opus 6 n°2, en la majeur, Segovia n°3 - D05
Etude opus 6 n°1, en ré majeur, Segovia n°4 - D05
Exercice opus 35 n°22, en si mineur, Segovia n°5 - D04
Exercice opus 35 n°17, en ré majeur, Segovia n°6 - D04
Leçon opus 31 n°21, en fa majeur, Segovia n°7 - D05
Leçon opus 31 n°16, en ré mineur, Segovia n°8 - D06
Leçon opus 31 n°20, en la majeur, Segovia n°9 - D06
Leçon opus 31 n°19, en la majeur, Segovia n°10 - D07
Etude opus 6 n°3, en mi majeur, Segovia n°11 - D07
Etude opus 6 n°6, en la majeur, Segovia n°12 - D07
Etude opus 6 n°9, en ré mineur, Segovia n°13 - D06
Etude opus 6 n°12, en la majeur, Segovia n°14 - D07
Exercice opus 35 n°16, en ré mineur, Segovia n°15 - D07
Etude opus 29 n°23, en sol majeur, Segovia n°16 - D08
Etude opus 6 n°11, en mi mineur, Segovia n°17 - D07
Etude opus 29 n°22, en mib majeur, Segovia n°18 - D08
Etude opus 29 n°13, en sib majeur, Segovia n°19 - D09
Etude opus 29 n°17, en do majeur, Segovia n°20 - D08

My guitar teacher started me on these back in college and gave me no.1 to start. He made the comment, "No.1 is deceptively challenging due to the necessity of allowing the suspension to ring through. You aren't playing correctly if there isn't any push/pull in the music." I struggled with that one for awhile before building the flexibility to chang through the suspensions!

Then, once completed, we moved to no.2. I took a deep breath expecting it to be harder. I learned that piece in 10 minutes :chaud:

The Segovia Sor studies aren't very easy as a whole, but I think the list quoted is a perfect summation of difficulty! I wish I was a member of this forum 12 years ago!
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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: Sor studies

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:25 pm

Why play the Sor studies in the order that Segovia recorded them? Why not play them in the order of logical technical development:
Opus 60
Opus 44
Opus 31
Opus 35
Opus 6
Opus 29

I think this will lead to a much healthier and solid development of the student's ability. Sor himself says that opus 44 and 60 are meant for beginners, but will provide a solid foundation for later work. Opus 35 is easier than Opus 31. And Opus 31 provides the skills for the advanced studies in Opus 6 and Opus 29. [end of Sor's comments]. Opus 6 and Opus 29 is a single set of 24 studies, which is why Opus 29 starts with #13. It follows Opus 6 #12 [my editorial addition].
I think (I do not know, but it seems logical, given the choices) that Segovia was interested in an attractive program, not in a didactic one. Sor, on the other hand, wrote these exercises and studies as didactic exercises. There is much to be lost by not learning all of them, and by not learning them in order.
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

Dustin McKinney
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Re: Sor studies

Post by Dustin McKinney » Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:28 pm

Yisrael van Handel wrote:Why play the Sor studies in the order that Segovia recorded them? Why not play them in the order of logical technical development:
Opus 60
Opus 44
Opus 31
Opus 35
Opus 6
Opus 29

I think this will lead to a much healthier and solid development of the student's ability. Sor himself says that opus 44 and 60 are meant for beginners, but will provide a solid foundation for later work. Opus 35 is easier than Opus 31. And Opus 31 provides the skills for the advanced studies in Opus 6 and Opus 29. [end of Sor's comments]. Opus 6 and Opus 29 is a single set of 24 studies, which is why Opus 29 starts with #13. It follows Opus 6 #12 [my editorial addition].
I think (I do not know, but it seems logical, given the choices) that Segovia was interested in an attractive program, not in a didactic one. Sor, on the other hand, wrote these exercises and studies as didactic exercises. There is much to be lost by not learning all of them, and by not learning them in order.
I think your think is a good thought! These definitely shouldn't be worked in order!
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2handband
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Re: Sor studies

Post by 2handband » Sun Dec 04, 2016 2:46 pm

Y'know, I saw on the internet sometime ago a complete graded list of every study ever by both Giuliani and Sor and I think maybe Carcassi. I stumbled across it while looking for something else and can't find it now. Does anyone know where that would be located?

EricKatz
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Re: Sor studies

Post by EricKatz » Mon Dec 05, 2016 10:04 am

Luis_Br wrote:I didn't have time to search the forum now, but there is an old topic here where I posted a dificulty level classification of all Sor and Giuliani studies, made by a famous Brazilian teacher here.
2handband wrote:Y'know, I saw on the internet sometime ago a complete graded list of every study ever by both Giuliani and Sor and I think maybe Carcassi. I stumbled across it while looking for something else and can't find it now. Does anyone know where that would be located?
It's here:
viewtopic.php?p=578568#p578568

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guitareleven
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Re: Sor studies

Post by guitareleven » Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:36 pm

JohnB wrote: ...I've always been puzzled by the Sor/Segovia #1 being the very first of the collection as IMO it needs quite a lot of skill and control to play well.
They all of them require quite a lot of skill an control to play well. Some of them may at first seem as though they don't require a great deal of such, but if you think they don't, then you've missed the point. For instance, anyone can learn to "boom-chuck" one's way through #4 of that collection, and it may be tempting to think that you've "done" that study once you get to that point. But that's only the point at which you're ready to go to work on it. What requires skill and control is not simply being able to churn out that texture, but to transcend the texture so it isn't in control of what you are doing; rather, you control it in order to make music out of it. Sor was a performer who captivated sophisticated, intelligent and demanding audiences; he didn't do it by gallumphing his way through such textures. His having written etudes that present such an unrelenting rhythmic profile was not wholly in deference to the simplemindedness of a novice approach, it was to challenge to the student to develop as a performer.

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zupfgeiger
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Re: Sor studies

Post by zupfgeiger » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:03 pm

JohnB wrote:
fralexis wrote:Thanks. My teacher just started me on them. He said it is time to begin Sor. You are right. Even the first one is a bit of a finger buster!
I've always been puzzled by the Sor/Segovia #1 being the very first of the collection as IMO it needs quite a lot of skill and control to play well.
I fully agree. This etude is a masterpiece that requires a lot of technical and musical skills to articulate the three different voices clear and tasteful. With this study Sor showed his genius as a composer.
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2handband
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Re: Sor studies

Post by 2handband » Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:10 pm

zupfgeiger wrote:
JohnB wrote:
fralexis wrote:Thanks. My teacher just started me on them. He said it is time to begin Sor. You are right. Even the first one is a bit of a finger buster!
I've always been puzzled by the Sor/Segovia #1 being the very first of the collection as IMO it needs quite a lot of skill and control to play well.
I fully agree. This etude is a masterpiece that requires a lot of technical and musical skills to articulate the three different voices clear and tasteful. With this study Sor showed his genius as a composer.
My very strong opinion is that he'd be named in the same breath as Mozart if he hadn't used all of his best melodic ideas for guitar music. I don't know why he seems so undervalued amongst guitar players.

vesa
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Re: Sor studies

Post by vesa » Tue Dec 06, 2016 7:06 am

Some of them are ¨concert studies¨.
I play sometimes a set of them in my solo recitals.
Last ones are more difficult e.g. Bb major is one of the toughest pieces
for left hand existing.
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