What is apoyando for?

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Gary Macleod
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Gary Macleod » Wed Feb 01, 2017 12:59 pm

Best use of apoyando is for fast loud scales in Spanish music so its stylistically like flamenco ie in the Rodrigo Aranjuez
see video for demo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTB0PBlzxB0

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:01 pm

Steve Langham wrote:A good example ... Sor Study in Bm (Segovia #5).
Blondie wrote:
Stephen Kenyon wrote: A good example as you say Steve, another might be Carcassi Op 60 3, and for exactly the same reason; apoyando first string cuts off the major 3rd of the supporting harmony. But very many people counsel for it to bring out the melody. I'm fairly sure the composer in both examples would not have approved.
Completely agree and I have argued this point previously here, it makes no musical sense and simply sounds wrong. It's a case of chopping up the music to make allowances for inadequate technique - both pieces sound great with a deep free stroke to bring out the melody.
Also agree - and I believe (hope) that this is fairly well accepted amongst more modern teachers who are, or should be, better informed than their predecessors.

Unfortunately there are still thousands of books out there (some very well known and still in print) lying in wait, false prophets to trap the unwary - Noad's classic "Solo Guitar Playing" is a prime example.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:31 pm

Gary Macleod wrote:Best use of apoyando is for fast loud scales in Spanish music so its stylistically like flamenco ie in the Rodrigo Aranjuez
see video for demo
Should the Aranjuez be stylistically akin to flamenco?

Nothing to do with the apoyando discussion obviously - just pondering. I know that Rodrigo's works often draw on regional sources for inspiration - some certainly Andalusian but I've always felt that the Aranjuez is more refined than that, revealing more affinity with the "madrileño" characteristics one hears in the likes of the later zarzuelists (that may be a neologism).

I'm no expert on Spanish "classical" form - it's just a thought ... but it seems to me that, if it is true that those scale passages are indeed meant to be evocative of flamenco then they do a pretty poor job of it. I'll grant you - Paco de Lucia brought a little of that flair in places but I've never heard anyone else manage it.

The best version still, in my mind, is that of Regino Sainz de la Maza - maybe not so technically evolved as some modern players but totally engaging - an elegant, refined narrative performance full of playfulness and delicacy. On listening to him one can easily believe that JR knew exactly who and what sort of an artist he was writing for.

Gary Macleod
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Gary Macleod » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:47 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Gary Macleod wrote:Best use of apoyando is for fast loud scales in Spanish music so its stylistically like flamenco ie in the Rodrigo Aranjuez
see video for demo
Should the Aranjuez be stylistically akin to flamenco?

Nothing to do with the apoyando discussion obviously - just pondering. I know that Rodrigo's works often draw on regional sources for inspiration - some certainly Andalusian but I've always felt that the Aranjuez is more refined than that, revealing more affinity with the "madrileño" characteristics one hears in the likes of the later zarzuelists (that may be a neologism).

I'm no expert on Spanish "classical" form - it's just a thought ... but it seems to me that, if it is true that those scale passages are indeed meant to be evocative of flamenco then they do a pretty poor job of it. I'll grant you - Paco de Lucia brought a little of that flair in places but I've never heard anyone else manage it.

The best version still, in my mind, is that of Regino Sainz de la Maza - maybe not so technically evolved as some modern players but totally engaging - an elegant, refined narrative performance full of playfulness and delicacy. On listening to him one can easily believe that JR knew exactly who and what sort of an artist he was writing for.
Yes, Rodrigo spoke about capturing some of the essence of the flamenco sound more so in the first movement.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:56 pm

Gary Macleod wrote:Yes, Rodrigo spoke about capturing some of the essence of the flamenco sound more so in the first movement.
That's interesting Gary - thanks. Any references for those comments that you know of? Be revealing to know specifically what he was talking about.

Gary Macleod
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Gary Macleod » Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:21 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Gary Macleod wrote:Yes, Rodrigo spoke about capturing some of the essence of the flamenco sound more so in the first movement.
That's interesting Gary - thanks. Any references for those comments that you know of? Be revealing to know specifically what he was talking about.
I used to have various books when I did my dissertation on it in Music college but that's 20 years ago ! ( wow time passes quickly ) but if you google aranjuez flameno influences youll get a few bits of info from various sources.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Wed Feb 01, 2017 4:26 pm

Gary Macleod wrote:I used to have various books when I did my dissertation on it in Music college but that's 20 years ago ! ( wow time passes quickly ) but if you google aranjuez flameno influences youll get a few bits of info from various sources.
Hmm ... did that already. Plenty of folks commenting on the "flamenco influence" without anything to back it up (as one might expect) but nothing direct from the horses mouth yet. I'll obviously have to dig a bit deeper.

It's annoying though - stuff like ...

"performed first by the guitar with a soft rasgueado (flamenco strumming)". (Steinberg)

... simply buys into a simplistic stereotype - the sort of "wash of sound" that a foreigner might hear as "Spanish" simply because there's a guitar being played. Rasgueado is not restricted to "flamenco strumming" and neither defines the other completely. Neither is that opening like any flamenco that I've ever heard - it's more akin to the rhythmic structure of the canarios. Hence my original question - the first thing I think of when I hear the opening of the Aranjuez is not flamenco but Sanz (to be fair, that author does touch on Rodrigo's fondness for Soler et al).

Also, I don't doubt that there's some influence from Andalusian music - I just wonder how much. Perhaps someone on the forum is more familiar with Rodrigo's own words on the subject? Thanks anyway.

Grooveman JS
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Grooveman JS » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:26 pm

Lawler wrote:
What is apoyando for?
Starting arguments.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Its called discussions :discussion: ; not arguments :D :D

Cheers :bravo:
Masaki Sakurai MA-RF
Antonio Picado Concierto DT

Grooveman JS
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Grooveman JS » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:43 pm

For me i use rest stroke only for single line melody playing, scales; I think this is where it's most appropriate; love the feel & the tone it generates .... the rest is all facilitated quite effectively with good free strokes....it can still sound very good, full & even loud; if you keep working on getting "good tone" out of your free strokes with proper planting techniques & angle of the RH.
Masaki Sakurai MA-RF
Antonio Picado Concierto DT

Julian Ward
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Julian Ward » Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:00 pm

It has an absolute and definite place in Spanish repertoire.

Luis_Br
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Luis_Br » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:21 pm

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Gary Macleod wrote:I used to have various books when I did my dissertation on it in Music college but that's 20 years ago ! ( wow time passes quickly ) but if you google aranjuez flameno influences youll get a few bits of info from various sources.
Hmm ... did that already. Plenty of folks commenting on the "flamenco influence" without anything to back it up (as one might expect) but nothing direct from the horses mouth yet. I'll obviously have to dig a bit deeper.

It's annoying though - stuff like ...

"performed first by the guitar with a soft rasgueado (flamenco strumming)". (Steinberg)

... simply buys into a simplistic stereotype - the sort of "wash of sound" that a foreigner might hear as "Spanish" simply because there's a guitar being played. Rasgueado is not restricted to "flamenco strumming" and neither defines the other completely. Neither is that opening like any flamenco that I've ever heard - it's more akin to the rhythmic structure of the canarios. Hence my original question - the first thing I think of when I hear the opening of the Aranjuez is not flamenco but Sanz (to be fair, that author does touch on Rodrigo's fondness for Soler et al).

Also, I don't doubt that there's some influence from Andalusian music - I just wonder how much. Perhaps someone on the forum is more familiar with Rodrigo's own words on the subject? Thanks anyway.
I haven't heard about this before either, but in another topic someone posted a video by J M Gallardo del Rey talking about the "flamenco" rhythms involved in Arnajuez. He actually doesn't use the word flamenco, he talks about the popular rhythms used by Rodrigo in the piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMYd4HDlmNw
It is in Spanish, unfortunately, but I'll help something.
At min 9:10 he speaks about score saying the cadence is "a tempo", so he sais it is wrong to fluctuate too much, uses this as basis to say it should has a strong rhythm pattern, and so he demonstrates a rhythmic version of it, which a forigner would certainly call a flamenco-style interpretation. Around 9:40 he plays another part of the cadence in an even way, then he explains the correct rhythm comes from tangos or rumbas (shows it at around 10:05) and then plays the cadence with the proper dance accent. Around minute 12:50 he talks about the rhythm of the first movement, he compares its rhythm to the guajira and plays it.
I've never heard about it either, I am not sure it is really Rodrigo's way of seeing it, but the explanations fit well. It might be a way of seeing it, it is not difficult to make similar rhythms to fit in. On the other hand, Gallardo del Rey is a renowned guitarist and teacher, he helped Paco de Lucia in preparing the Concierto, since Paco was not a proficient reader, so maybe this was the folk rhythms they discovered behind the piece and you find over the net Rodrigo's declaration that Paco's version was a great one.

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guitarrista
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by guitarrista » Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:34 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Gary Macleod wrote:I used to have various books when I did my dissertation on it in Music college but that's 20 years ago ! ( wow time passes quickly ) but if you google aranjuez flameno influences youll get a few bits of info from various sources.
Hmm ... did that already. Plenty of folks commenting on the "flamenco influence" without anything to back it up (as one might expect) but nothing direct from the horses mouth yet. I'll obviously have to dig a bit deeper.
See primary sources in this recent brief dissertation: http://diginole.lib.fsu.edu/islandora/o ... %3A183685/

"Flamenco Guitar Techniques in the Music of Joaquin Rodrigo. "
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Luis_Br
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Luis_Br » Tue Feb 14, 2017 10:53 am

I haven't read the whole thesis. But the question that reamains is if that was really Rodrigo's intention when composing. There are lots of varied "flamenco" rhythms that may fit in Rodrigo's score. Del Rey result is nice, but it doesn't mean this is the "correct way" or "Rodrigo's way". I also see the first movement more related to an old dance than to a flamenco's one.
In Brazil we have some similar phenomenon with Villa-Lobos and other nacionalist composers. People like to find and add folk swing to their music. Sometimes it is nice and add variety, sometimes it is a bit odd. I remmember an interview with Villa-Lobos where the guy asked him about playing one of his choros with a folk approach, and he answered it was influenced by choros, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is a choro.

Rognvald
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by Rognvald » Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:57 am

A visual artist has a palette of colors. A musician has a palette of colors . . . one of which is apoyando. Assuming good technique, the greater the colors, the greater the musical communication assuming, of course, that the player is not a musical version of Andy Warhol. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

CactusWren
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Re: What is apoyando for?

Post by CactusWren » Sat Jul 29, 2017 3:44 pm

Apoyando in general is used to get a fat, full melody tone out of the fingers. A similar sound can be gotten from free stroke, but not as easily and not precisely the same sound IMO. Apoyando also lets you keep more points of contact with the instrument and thus gives a feeling of security, stability, and sometimes relaxation. It also gives a stronger and more dynamic sound for fast scale passages (although only a small minority of players ever get this skill down).

I have been playing around with Sagreras' method, book one, where he starts off with apoyando rest stroke, obviously considering it foundational to the sound and technique of the guitar. Playing through these etudes and lessons has improved my rest strokes, even 30 years in my playing career. I came late to rest strokes. Often people like myself who started with free strokes never get comfortable with apoyando, but to neglect them leaves a hole in the sound palette and technical arsenal.

Another important use is in apoyando thumb strokes. They also give stronger and fuller sound, but in this case they're very valuable for damping. Practicing damping ringing bass notes is essential to a clean sound, and the rest stroke takes care of half the problem automatically.

Spanish repertoire in general, often so "macho," benefits greatly from rest strokes.

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