fingerings...

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Denian Arcoleo
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fingerings...

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:45 pm

I'm going to get flak for this. I have a fair number of editions by Angelo Gilardino with his fingerings.
I don't understand his fingerings.
They make no musical sense to me.
I guess he and I just have vastly different conceptions of music.
runs for cover...

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: fingerings...

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Feb 15, 2017 4:01 pm

I think you'll find they are intended to create or rather allow for, cross-string ringing e.g. campanella or laissez-vibrer type sound. Actually, this would only apply to his own compositions.
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Lawler
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Re: fingerings...

Post by Lawler » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:04 am

I hear you. Print music for guitar is too often over-marked with fingerings. Aside from Angelo Gilardino's reasons, maybe the general issue is a hold-over from Segovia's parent-child attitude about teaching in his masterclasses... "Here is my recording... emulate it in detail. Here is my print edition... play it with these fingerings. Or suffer my wrath. (I love Segovia's playing, though.)" Maybe it arises from the fact that so many guitarists read staff notation as fingering directions rather than what notation really means (the sound of the music).

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: fingerings...

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:01 am

Lawler wrote: Maybe it arises from the fact that so many guitarists read staff notation as fingering directions rather than what notation really means (the sound of the music).
Precisely right.

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Re: fingerings...

Post by Julian Ward » Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:22 am

Once you get past the beginners stage and are an intermediate player, part of the essential learning process of the guitar is working out fingerings to suit you or experiment with several - particularly alternative positions. A good teacher should encourage this. Fingering should always allow the flow of music as the composer intended so great care must always be taken.

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Stephen Kenyon
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Re: fingerings...

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:29 am

Denian, is it AG's own pieces then or editions, e.g. the Segovia Archive?
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Re: fingerings...

Post by brooks » Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:56 pm

Lawler wrote:I hear you. Print music for guitar is too often over-marked with fingerings. Aside from Angelo Gilardino's reasons, maybe the general issue is a hold-over from Segovia's parent-child attitude about teaching in his masterclasses... "Here is my recording... emulate it in detail. Here is my print edition... play it with these fingerings. Or suffer my wrath. (I love Segovia's playing, though.)" Maybe it arises from the fact that so many guitarists read staff notation as fingering directions rather than what notation really means (the sound of the music).
I don't at all mind arrangements/transcriptions to include comprehensive LH and RH fingerings. It seems to me that, apart from key and voicing, these are what constitute the "arrangement" for guitar. I think the guitarist should always regard them as suggested and feel free to change them for musical and/or technical reasons, but part of learning the art of fingering is to see how the masters went about it, and think about why they made the choices they did. I'm sure Segovia was happy to have Llobet's and Tarrega's arrangements of Albeniz, Granados, Bach, etc not because he wouldn't have been able to get the original scores and transcribe them from scratch, but because someone had already done the heavy lifting of key selection, voicing decisions, and writing out plausible fingerings which he used as a starting point and which evolved as he made them his own...which seems a reasonable approach even if he didn't allow his own students that freedom. But I agree that there are some arrangers where the choices don't seem to make any sense at all, and are a hindrance instead of a benefit and you end up changing almost all of them. It makes you wonder whether they were making random changes from existing versions to justify publishing a new edition. (This isn't a comment on Angelo Gilardino's arrangements as I've never seen one).

My real peeve is the common but often false assumption among published arrangers that the LH fingering are more important or more difficult to figure out than the RH, since so many of them provide comprehensive notation for the former and little if anything for the latter even when working out RH fingerings presents the bigger challenge, as with, say the Bach 1006a prelude. Bream doesn't make this assumption (at least if the one book of his arrangements that I have is anything to go by), and provides both in about equal measure.
Last edited by brooks on Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: fingerings...

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Thu Feb 16, 2017 3:13 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:Denian, is it AG's own pieces then or editions, e.g. the Segovia Archive?
Mainly music AG has edited. Anyway, it's no big deal, just that in any given situation in which there might be three or four alternative fingerings AG seems to consistently pick the one that would be at the bottom of my list of preferences.

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Re: fingerings...

Post by RectifiedGTRz » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:19 am

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Stephen Kenyon wrote:Denian, is it AG's own pieces then or editions, e.g. the Segovia Archive?
Mainly music AG has edited. Anyway, it's no big deal, just that in any given situation in which there might be three or four alternative fingerings AG seems to consistently pick the one that would be at the bottom of my list of preferences.
Yes. I Agree; I have the Blanco edition of Torroba's Castles of Spain and there are some fingerings (a lot actually) that make you lift your fingers before the actual written note value; he uses cross strings a lot too.

Segovia was really firm supposedly in master classes on his fingerings yet he would change them for himself. He would also recompose passages (did this to his set of Castles of Spain) but I would assume with Torroba's blessing. He gave Ponce what for when he wrote the 24 Preludes in all keys... fingerings are good to go by but you can always change them. You can also add slurs to make things more guitaristic. Just remember: A lot of Segovia's fingerings utilized the upper registers on the lower strings not because it was easier but because he was striving for a specific sound in that register. That's why I love his Revised edition of Torroba's Sonatina. It just sings.
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Re: fingerings...

Post by celestemcc » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:56 pm

"It depends,". If I'm playing original music from a still-living composer and it's fingered, I'll use them since I'm assuming there's a sound the composer wanted, eg, playing in position vs. open strings. But even then I'll modify to suit myself while trying to keep to composer's intent. If there's no fingerings, my choice prevails!

And then there's... Bach. Was discussing this yesterday. Take any given guitar edition for one piece, say the 1st Cello Suite... different fingerings from each edition, and lots of editions are available. Most all of those are based on the arranger's concept of the sound: more cello-like (the music following scale-like patterns in closed positions) or more guitar-like, with cross-string (camapanela) effects? What's the phrasing, how to bring out the multiple voices? Ornamentation? It's daunting, to me. Ultimately you choose the approach you like and base your own fingerings on a given edition.

Or, you can just choose an un-fingered edition and do 'em all yourself. SO many choices!
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Re: fingerings...

Post by Luis_Br » Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:12 am

To me AG fingerings doesn't make sense either.

Narciso Yepes is a player I don't like very much, but I recently discovered he has very intelligent fingerings. It is worth studying his fingerings.

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Re: fingerings...

Post by glassynails » Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:25 pm

One should never alter the fingerings of a Maestro such as Segovia. Especially if you play in one his Masterclasses. I always stick to the fingerings of Segovia 100% and that's just the way it is. I accept it and I feel you must in order to play Segovia's pieces! Segovia was not a mere mortal like the rest of us and he knew the guitar inside and out. We will never be able to fully understand the nature of the cg. It is not meant for us to know.

Segovia often changed his fingerings though. As the author of such beautiful arrangements, he had that right. Glassynails has always thought of himself as a pretty good transcriber, going all the way back to transcribing off of old scratchy 1920's country blues artists recordings and often times even correcting many 'mistakes' in Stefan Grossman's transcriptions, although Glassy realizes that Grossman may have not had the time or desire to transcribe in such a fully accurate manner, but rather just to demonstrate in a macroscopic manner the 'goings-on' of a particular bluesman's playing. Glassy has finally come to terms with this, but sadly has moved on away from the country blues music.

Glassy though has come to a conclusion with regards to why Segovia may have often deviated in his recordings or live playing of pieces that he had earlier arranged in such a highly beautiful arranging style that could only be improved upon by the efforts of the Maestro himself! I believe overwhelmingly that it was to confuse later efforts by the infamous Glassynails to correct the discrepancies between his recordings and the published Schott editions! Although with the advent of slow-down software Glassy had found a way to almost fully duplicate the recorded material and record it to paper. He usually gave himself an error-margin of only 2%, within which he usually was able to fall within.

The recordings though sadly cannot reflect the fingerings fully that the Maestro Segovia had used. Sadly, Glassynails has resigned himself to this fate of never knowing the left and right fingerings of such recordings! Again, I don't believe these fingerings are meant for us to know though. Once I did happen to see one recording played live by the Maestro after years of incorrectly assuming a left hand fingering. Upon the revelation of this particular phrases fingerings I was so overwhelmed that I broke down crying for almost an hour afterwards .... it was that beautiful, as Segovia's fingerings most always are.

I feel that this is why we must always faithfully follow our dear Maestro Segovia to the T! Glassynails even went so far as to buy the very same glasses that Segovia wore and a matching tux! Glassy is even trying to gain weight, so that his fingers will get fatter in order to be closer to Segovia! What is that saying "If it walks and talks like a duck" .....?

So ladies and gents, let's never forget the countless hours that went into the Maestro's arrangements! We may often try to find 'better' fingerings, but is the full-hearted belief of Glassynails that there are no better fingerings! There can never be and there we not meant to be! We have to accept that we will always be in the shadow of the Maestro and we can never do anything to approach his greatness, nor should we even try! It is a heresy!
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Re: fingerings...

Post by brooks » Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:56 pm

glassynails wrote:One should never alter the fingerings of a Maestro such as Segovia. Especially if you play in one his Masterclasses. I always stick to the fingerings of Segovia 100% and that's just the way it is. I accept it and I feel you must in order to play Segovia's pieces! Segovia was not a mere mortal like the rest of us and he knew the guitar inside and out. We will never be able to fully understand the nature of the cg. It is not meant for us to know.

Segovia often changed his fingerings though. As the author of such beautiful arrangements, he had that right. Glassynails has always thought of himself as a pretty good transcriber, going all the way back to transcribing off of old scratchy 1920's country blues artists recordings and often times even correcting many 'mistakes' in Stefan Grossman's transcriptions, although Glassy realizes that Grossman may have not had the time or desire to transcribe in such a fully accurate manner, but rather just to demonstrate in a macroscopic manner the 'goings-on' of a particular bluesman's playing. Glassy has finally come to terms with this, but sadly has moved on away from the country blues music.

Glassy though has come to a conclusion with regards to why Segovia may have often deviated in his recordings or live playing of pieces that he had earlier arranged in such a highly beautiful arranging style that could only be improved upon by the efforts of the Maestro himself! I believe overwhelmingly that it was to confuse later efforts by the infamous Glassynails to correct the discrepancies between his recordings and the published Schott editions! Although with the advent of slow-down software Glassy had found a way to almost fully duplicate the recorded material and record it to paper. He usually gave himself an error-margin of only 2%, within which he usually was able to fall within.

The recordings though sadly cannot reflect the fingerings fully that the Maestro Segovia had used. Sadly, Glassynails has resigned himself to this fate of never knowing the left and right fingerings of such recordings! Again, I don't believe these fingerings are meant for us to know though. Once I did happen to see one recording played live by the Maestro after years of incorrectly assuming a left hand fingering. Upon the revelation of this particular phrases fingerings I was so overwhelmed that I broke down crying for almost an hour afterwards .... it was that beautiful, as Segovia's fingerings most always are.

I feel that this is why we must always faithfully follow our dear Maestro Segovia to the T! Glassynails even went so far as to buy the very same glasses that Segovia wore and a matching tux! Glassy is even trying to gain weight, so that his fingers will get fatter in order to be closer to Segovia! What is that saying "If it walks and talks like a duck" .....?

So ladies and gents, let's never forget the countless hours that went into the Maestro's arrangements! We may often try to find 'better' fingerings, but is the full-hearted belief of Glassynails that there are no better fingerings! There can never be and there we not meant to be! We have to accept that we will always be in the shadow of the Maestro and we can never do anything to approach his greatness, nor should we even try! It is a heresy!
For Glassy's sake, I really hope this is satire. Otherwise it reads like a cry for help.

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Re: fingerings...

Post by Lawler » Fri Apr 14, 2017 1:27 am

brooks wrote:...I really hope this is satire...
Or someone hacked his account.

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Re: fingerings...

Post by Batstone » Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:53 pm

wow....

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