Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

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scottszone
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by scottszone » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:48 pm

guit-box wrote:If you're gluten intolerant, don't eat lunch at a bakery and then complain to all the other guests about your tummy ache.
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robert e
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by robert e » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:58 pm

scottszone wrote:
robert e wrote:
Lawler wrote:Or become able to run well by watching videos of famous runners.
Many elite athletes and coaches would disagree with you. Video has been a staple of athletic training at the highest levels for decades now. It would be silly not to use a tool so readily available and that's proven so effective.
Performance videos can also be very inspirational and help with fingerings and interpretation. Videos can help the learning process, but are not essential. Segovia had no videos to watch in his formative years. He learned through self-observation, trial and error, and rigorous, determined, and dedicated practice.
Which says nothing at all about the effectiveness of videos as training tools, and it's certainly not a reason to deprecate their use. Likewise, the fact that Tarrega didn't use clip-on electronic tuners during his studies says nothing about the effectiveness or usefulness of electronic tuners. I should have taken more care to type what I meant, which was that it's silly to dismiss a technology or technique out of hand just because people didn't use it when it wasn't available.

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scottszone
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by scottszone » Fri Mar 31, 2017 7:06 pm

robert e wrote:
scottszone wrote:
robert e wrote: Many elite athletes and coaches would disagree with you. Video has been a staple of athletic training at the highest levels for decades now. It would be silly not to use a tool so readily available and that's proven so effective.
Performance videos can also be very inspirational and help with fingerings and interpretation. Videos can help the learning process, but are not essential. Segovia had no videos to watch in his formative years. He learned through self-observation, trial and error, and rigorous, determined, and dedicated practice.
Which says nothing at all about the effectiveness of videos as training tools, and it's certainly not a reason to deprecate their use. Likewise, the fact that Tarrega didn't use clip-on electronic tuners during his studies says nothing about the effectiveness or usefulness of electronic tuners. I should have taken more care to type what I meant, which was that it's silly to dismiss a technology or technique out of hand just because people didn't use it when it wasn't available.
I agree with your straw man argument. But why argue with your imagination?
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Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:29 pm

Hey scottszone. Let's hear your playing!

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scottszone
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by scottszone » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:03 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:Hey scottszone. Let's hear your playing!
Certainly, but first let's see you put your head in the mouth of a lion.
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Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Fri Mar 31, 2017 9:25 pm

Bring it on!

Soundminer
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Soundminer » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:13 am

scottszone wrote:
Soundminer wrote:
scottszone wrote:
In simple terms, "pluck string, repeat" is exactly what is happening. The student must feel it is in their grasp and something that even they, with limited skills, knowledge, and ability can manage. If the teacher insists on reciting a dissertation on the simple act of plucking the string it will more often than not lead to confusion, helplessness, and discouragement. Efficiency, coordination, and control are not immediate no matter how specific the descriptors, it is developed through dedicated, determined, and focused practice over a significant amount of time.

The teacher must always put themselves in each students shoes and speak on their level in language they can relate to, understand, and put into practice, anything less is self-defeating and yes absurd. I realize some want the perfect descriptor, but it is really beside the point.


you are indeed captain obvious and you cannot discern between different focus points.
We all know how you feel by now, you made your point. about ten times.
Now please sir, I would like to ask you once again to stay out this thread.

If you keep repeating yourself here that would be nothing less then absurd. Thank you
“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”
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I agree scottszone...I've mentioned this exact thing myself a couple of times.
Who's to say you are not a hundred percent right..you very well may be.

So I've been a bit rude to you and I'd like to apoligize for that.

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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by guit-box » Sat Apr 01, 2017 12:02 pm

Use your eyes and ears to observe and then try what you see and hear with your hands. It's not "new technology".
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Sat Apr 01, 2017 1:52 pm

Guit-box, what have you discovered through the videos of great players about where the knuckle joint is in relation to the string? Some say right above it, Tennant says "more or less". What have you seen?

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scottszone
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by scottszone » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:19 pm

“If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't understand it yourself.”
― Albert Einstein[/quote]


I agree scottszone...I've mentioned this exact thing myself a couple of times.
Who's to say you are not a hundred percent right..you very well may be.

So I've been a bit rude to you and I'd like to apoligize for that.[/quote]

No sweat Soundminer and sorry if I annoyed you with my persistence. I only wanted my view to have a seat at the table, but I believe there is room for everyone ;)

One thing I do with my beginner/early intermediate students is I make sure they know what pima is, then I play a short right hand exercise for them with p for the bass note and ima for the top 3 strings, and ask them to watch my right hand and fingers, then I have them play it slowly and observe their movements. I teach free stroke first. After that is good I do the same with rest stroke.

Some students will instinctively place their hand in a natural and "correct" position (either with a straight or slightly curved wrist) and pluck the string with minimal motion and a nice tone. Some hook their fingers slightly, some don't. Some anchor their thumb on a bass string as I do, some don't. Any of these approaches is legitimate if it works for them in a musical, relaxed, and pain-free way, as there are examples of pros who use any of them successfully.

Only if there is a problem, do I interject additional detail, mostly by having them observe more. Examples of problems would include bumping adjacent strings, undesirable tone, odd joint movements, finger bouncing, and awkward or unnatural hand, wrist, or finger positions. Once they have settled their hand position and finger movements, I teach exercises and etudes with the goal of developing accuracy, coordination, dynamics and musicality, and later speed and agility.

This minimal approach has worked for me time and again where other approaches haven't. I am curious about other methods and hope I have not unintentionally derailed the conversation. I agree it can be frustrating at times that there is not a perfect description in everyday language that works for everyone, which is why I offer an approach that has worked for my students successfully over the long term.
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guit-box
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by guit-box » Sat Apr 01, 2017 11:57 pm

I'm more interested in studying world class concert guitarists and trying to glean from those players what their fingers are doing. Of course this is just one tool to learn from, but I much prefer that to listening to someone on delcamp who might appear to be knowledgeable just because they are boastful. If the people on this forum (I include myself) were great players, then we'd be out there doing it and not spending time talking about it on a forum with other amateur and intermediate level players. Remember, folks ,when you're giving someone here the benefit of the doubt, you have no idea if they can even play or not. They might be a 10 year old, or an electric guitarist, or not even be able to play Romanza without dropping a note on every measure. Unless you can be in the same room with a teacher, and they can demonstrate what they are teaching, you just have no idea what level that person is speaking from. That is why I believe this is the perfect outlet for studying the techniques of great players, we know who we are talking about and what they can do. It doesn't replace a good teacher for a beginner or intermediate player, but I don't believe any of these right hand technique topics are really for beginners, they're more for serious and advanced players.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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scottszone
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by scottszone » Sun Apr 02, 2017 1:13 am

guit-box wrote:I'm more interested in studying world class concert guitarists and trying to glean from those players what their fingers are doing. Of course this is just one tool to learn from, but I much prefer that to listening to someone on delcamp who might appear to be knowledgeable just because they are boastful. If the people on this forum (I include myself) were great players, then we'd be out there doing it and not spending time talking about it on a forum with other amateur and intermediate level players. Remember, folks ,when you're giving someone here the benefit of the doubt, you have no idea if they can even play or not. They might be a 10 year old, or an electric guitarist, or not even be able to play Romanza without dropping a note on every measure. Unless you can be in the same room with a teacher, and they can demonstrate what they are teaching, you just have no idea what level that person is speaking from. That is why I believe this is the perfect outlet for studying the techniques of great players, we know who we are talking about and what they can do. It doesn't replace a good teacher for a beginner or intermediate player, but I don't believe any of these right hand technique topics are really for beginners, they're more for serious and advanced players.
As you say, if they are serious and advanced players they have already worked out their right hand technique issues by definition and they are likely not reading this forum (unless they also teach or are promoting concerts or recordings). But if your point is true, beginner/Intermediate players have the most to benefit from such a discussion.

You are making what is called an Ad hominem and invalidating anything you have to add to the discussion at the same time. After all as you admit you are not a "world class concert guitarist" and so have nothing of value to demonstrate or discuss according to your argument. But truth is truth no matter the source.

Perhaps anyone that dares comment in this discussion without anticipating hostile personal attacks should post a passable version of their performance of Romanza as a prerequisite for your consideration or condemnation? Here's mine:

https://youtu.be/Xv4VKKjdvRQ
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Elman Concepcion
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Elman Concepcion » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:35 am

scottszone

That was a good attempt at that piece.

But it is far from pro stuff.
Try listening to pros.

There is a thread with slow vids in Delcamp that really demonstrates what is really going on with the top players.

Trust me - going through that thread will change your world.
You can thank “guit-box” for having the guts to put out the evidence despite the obvious obstacles of established classical guitar pedagogy and orthodoxy.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=80875

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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by scottszone » Sun Apr 02, 2017 2:50 am

Elman Concepcion wrote:scottszone

That was a good attempt at that piece.

But it is far from pro stuff.
Try listening to pros.

There is a thread with slow vids in Delcamp that really demonstrates what is really going on with the top players.

Trust me - going through that thread will change your world.
You can thank “guit-box” for having the guts to put out the evidence despite the obvious obstacles of established classical guitar pedagogy and orthodoxy.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=80875
Thanks Elman, are you a pro? Not sure if you have the credentials to comment, I'd need to see you play some simple piece off-the-cuff with a webcam video so I could knock you down a few notches first.

Serious, thanks for listening, but it wasn't a showpiece and I'm not trying to prove anything. I'm paid quite well. I just find it hilarious the blindsided hero worship and egotism some display on this forum. I was warned it's full of a holes, but I find it quite entertaining, and even enlightening in some cases. Keep watching the pros folks, and stare hard at those little sausages, it'll make you all better in no time ;)
Last edited by scottszone on Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by guit-box » Sun Apr 02, 2017 3:01 am

Elman Concepcion wrote:scottszone

That was a good attempt at that piece.

But it is far from pro stuff.
Try listening to pros.

There is a thread with slow vids in Delcamp that really demonstrates what is really going on with the top players.

Trust me - going through that thread will change your world.
You can thank “guit-box” for having the guts to put out the evidence despite the obvious obstacles of established classical guitar pedagogy and orthodoxy.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=80875
Thank you Elman, that was precisely my point. If scottszone is going to be so arrogantly confident about his way of teaching and playing that he can pay zero attention to the topic being addressed by the moderator (soundminer), go on and on about how stupid it is and how his way of teaching is so much smarter, he should at least be able to back that up with a professional performance of Romanza. Like I said, Delcamp is not really the place to find advice from a professional teacher, you likely won't find that here, it costs money to find good advice and you can still spend lots of money and get bad advice from pros. -- there's no guaranty, I know that from experience. I find Delcamp useful for posting videos and hashing out arguments about what the pros are really doing, but it's best to take what anyone says with a healthy grain of salt.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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