Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Soundminer
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Soundminer » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:08 am

scottszone wrote:One does not run a marathon by reading a book.
What is your problem?

I asked you to stay out, is that too hard for you?

We're discussing something here that may never be fully understood. So what??

Working on a mystery..You find new things every day and change opinion all the time

It's fun and it's how things get unrevelled.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:36 am

scottszone wrote:One can get very good at describing how to swim without ever really jumping in the water.
This kind of pithy one-liner might seem clever at first glance but, even though it's true, tells us nothing about the legitimacy or otherwise of undertaking such a description.

Imagine, ridiculous idea but just imagine, that we thought that we could build a rocket to take us to the moon ... what sort of research and planning might that involve and how many of those researchers would actually make the trip?
Lawler wrote:
scottszone wrote:One does not run a marathon by reading a book.
Or become able to run well by watching videos of famous runners.
On the contrary - even the most gifted athletes have, for some time, been able to improve their technique greatly through careful video analysis and better understanding of physiological requirements.

I doubt that anyone involved in these technique threads is expecting miracles only through discussion.

Soundminer
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Soundminer » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:45 pm

Soundminer wrote:For short I meant to say ..


1. Preparing is flexing the MCP and letting the PIP and DIP extend naturally so they end up in reach of and under the string
2. The plant is extension of the MCP joint...the PIP and DIP naturally flex and make contact with the string
3. The displacement or energizing is flexion of the PIP....the MCP relaxes and thus moves outwards passively..the DIP may or may not collapse
4. The pluck is Flexion of the DIP! which it hardly can do on it's own, but now can because of the counter pressure coming from the string ....the PIP and MCP relax...this gives the feeling and looks like the PIP and MCP are flexing again but it's passive

Pretty close to what guit-box is describing but also kind of different.

After some playing and self examination I think this is all too micro!! This won't work in my opinion but it got me thinking about things.

I think the finger's job from whatever joint (but most logically from the MCP because it's stronger and it's not only a hingejoint!!)...is to work with the shoulder.

This to get the whole arm over the string, with the MCP as the trigger.

I think the shoulder must be relaxed to a state where it allows itself to be moved backward or forward.
A feeling of firmness, let's say grip and the ability to let go of this grip. All the way from finger to shoulder

Also synchronicity between left and right get's more understandable and better to envision if you think this way, in my opinion.

An arm is really one big funny finger right?

It's funny that on a daily basis I am changing the way I look at this thing

So tomorrow will probably be different :) ...I'd still like everyone's input and thoughts though! It is very helpfull

If something sticks then we're going in the right direction....and the real work begins. As to figuring out how to help the student in the best way

Through illustrations (mind)
Exercises away from the guitar (body awareness)
And attitude (insert yourself)

:merci:

robert e
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by robert e » Wed Mar 29, 2017 3:42 pm

Lawler wrote:
scottszone wrote:One does not run a marathon by reading a book.
Or become able to run well by watching videos of famous runners.
Many elite athletes and coaches would disagree with you. Video has been a staple of athletic training at the highest levels for decades now. It would be silly not to use a tool so readily available and that's proven so effective.

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scottszone
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by scottszone » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:15 pm

Soundminer wrote:
scottszone wrote:One does not run a marathon by reading a book.
What is your problem?

I asked you to stay out, is that too hard for you?

We're discussing something here that may never be fully understood. So what??

Working on a mystery..You find new things every day and change opinion all the time

It's fun and it's how things get unrevelled.
In order to develop good right hand technique, you should really be open to all points of view. The doing is the most essential part, without that it will never happen. With consistent long term focused practice any problems, errors, or misunderstandings will reveal themselves and be corrected. It's a process.
2006 Manuel Contreras II C-5 Cedar/IRW
2016 Cordoba C7-CE Cedar/IRW
2006 Cordoba GK Studio Spruce/Cypress

guit-box
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by guit-box » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:32 pm

Last edited by guit-box on Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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scottszone
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by scottszone » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:33 pm

robert e wrote:
Lawler wrote:
scottszone wrote:One does not run a marathon by reading a book.
Or become able to run well by watching videos of famous runners.
Many elite athletes and coaches would disagree with you. Video has been a staple of athletic training at the highest levels for decades now. It would be silly not to use a tool so readily available and that's proven so effective.
Performance videos can also be very inspirational and help with fingerings and interpretation. Videos can help the learning process, but are not essential. Segovia had no videos to watch in his formative years. He learned through self-observation, trial and error, and rigorous, determined, and dedicated practice.
2006 Manuel Contreras II C-5 Cedar/IRW
2016 Cordoba C7-CE Cedar/IRW
2006 Cordoba GK Studio Spruce/Cypress

guit-box
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by guit-box » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:47 pm

My ancestors did math calculations with an abacus. They didn't need no stinkin' computers. ;-)
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:53 pm

As the saying goes: "the proof is in the pudding". Whatever works, do it. Until you can demonstrate that it works in your own playing, it's just talk. Having said that, my playing is still developing.

Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Wed Mar 29, 2017 10:55 pm

What is your message here? It looks like a page of memes?

Soundminer
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Soundminer » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:40 am

Robbie Flamerock wrote:As the saying goes: "the proof is in the pudding". Whatever works, do it. Until you can demonstrate that it works in your own playing, it's just talk. Having said that, my playing is still developing.

Very true and you're very right sir, mine too and hope it always will.

I'd love nothing more then to demonstrate what I'm doing and explain in such a way that I just know I'm right.

That's why I made this thread...The doing is not my problem, the explaining is.

I know that's hard to do...maybe impossible. But there has to be a better way then what we have circulating now. Simple, Logical, Easier to wrap the mind around for the student.

Practicing correctly, sensibly, makes perfect
Just practicing makes permanent

This I do know!


If I only get a nudge here and there it's perfectly allright with me..I'm not claiming to know anything :)



Ok, there's a student..he want's to make pudding.
I say...well do it then
He says..what do I use?
I say...I'm sorry kid, I don't know if I'm honest...but here, go learn in what ways you can serve it! (music theory) oh, and pay me my money :?


But yeah, setting up a new way of teaching is useless if I can't convince myself..

So I'm going to try and do that and run thoughts and ideas by you guys
It's not a matter of life and death, it's also something I enjoy investigating

Soundminer
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Soundminer » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:45 am

Robbie Flamerock wrote:
What is your message here? It looks like a page of memes?
isn't that obvious? :wink:

Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:21 pm

I agree with just about everything you say, in fact you sounded like you were making my point using different words.

Robbie Flamerock
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:25 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:I agree with just about everything you say, in fact you sounded like you were making my point using different words.

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scottszone
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Re: Right hand technique~what REALLY is happening

Post by scottszone » Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:32 pm

pluck string. repeat.
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