What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does one do

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Robbie Flamerock
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What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does one do

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:29 pm

What are the actual practical steps to achieve an effective free stroke?

Robbie Flamerock
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:31 pm

After years of seeking (a la Mr. Ortega), I am settling on Douglas Neidt's approach.

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scottszone
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by scottszone » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:12 am

focus on the music
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Lawler
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by Lawler » Fri Mar 31, 2017 4:40 am

scottszone wrote:focus on the music
Yes. Form follows function.

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scottszone
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by scottszone » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:22 am

Lawler wrote:
scottszone wrote:focus on the music
Yes. Form follows function.
Thanks Lawler, it's encouraging to know someone gets it. I suppose for some I will have to post a video of some superhuman technical feat I've managed with such insight, although it is our humanity and our struggles with it that communicate the most. A robot or computer can be programmed to perform with more effective free stroke (using capitalist ideology terms) than Segovia or Julian Bream. Would anyone care?

Say superhuman technique, why? What's the point? Any accountant will tell that teen pop sells better and classical is dead. I'm really going to go out on a limb here and say what I believe, the only reason to study, play, and perform classical guitar music (or any non-popular music) comes from two sources God (spiritual necessity) and/or ego. Either of which is legitimate, though one is more preferable.

Classical music still holds symbolic value as the rusty BMW vs the new Camero. Even modern culture cannot shake the instinctive sense that exemplary classical music expresses something undeniably sacred, otherwise it would no longer exist. It is no longer profitable, that is for certain. For the shallow, it can indulge a superiority complex (for example CEO's that fund the local orchestra) regardless of their understanding or respect (or lack) for the musicians who study, perform, or compose the music.
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:39 am

scottszone wrote:focus on the music
Scottzone - many of us "get it."

One can point at thousands of players that adequately achieve a certain level of technical skill completely unguided by any supposed expert and/or physiological understanding. Equally there are many thousands who become frustrated (this forum bears witness to that) even to the point of quitting when all they need is observation and possibly redirection from a knowledgeable and observant teacher.

Quite obviously not everybody needs to know what a proximal phalange is - I teach 5-year olds for example - but the professional teacher should be aware in great detail what is happening and how to direct any student, using appropriate language or demonstration, in a way that predictably facilitates their progress with safety.

It is easily demonstrable that this is not always the case. For instance - I personally know two extremely gifted and serious, hard working students of Gilardino - real virtuosi (and I don't use that term as lightly as many) who suffered debilitating guitar-related neurological problems. Happily both acknowledged the problem early, recovered (though one was forced to cease playing for over a year) and now lead successful concert careers.

Another guitarist (former student of mine) entered a conservatoire; one of his chief instrumental instructors suffered from focal dystonia and, would you believe it, this player, formerly what I might describe as a "natural", now also suffers the condition. Is there a connection? I honestly don't know but these are not isolated cases - something, sometimes is wrong with the pedagogy. Guit-Box's thread may not provide all (or indeed any) of the answers but I'm glad to have read most of it. The exploration is worthwhile.
elsewhere scottszone wrote:There are many professional classical guitarists and teachers with great right hand technique that managed to develop it without perfect descriptors or dissertation level explanations. Explain that.
First of all it depends on how you define "great". Then I would say that there are many, many more that do not achieve this "great" technique. Explain that. In every practical undertaking we instinctively use our bodies in a way that feels comfortable and easy. I can drive, swim, run, jump etc. perfectly well. With endless hours of unguided practice at any one of those activities I might also be lucky enough to achieve a superior level of expertise.
also elsewhere scottszone wrote:experience is the best teacher
Experience may be a teacher - not the best. Look at a few very experienced drivers - often some of the worst on the road. They just drive badly with ease.

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scottszone
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by scottszone » Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:59 pm

I agree with everything you said Mark and our views are essentially aligned. I state the simply obvious in the spirit of amusement and to not lose sight of the forest for the trees. Those that would be offended by that are simply missing the point. Every teacher at times straddles the line between Zen Master and fool.

Yes the fact holds true there will always be more bad guitar players than good ones for every reason under the sun. It's in the natural order of things. As teachers we attempt to rectify that as best we can, and what works for one may not work for another. And some teachers do more harm than good with a dogmatic approach.

As you say experience may not be the best teacher, but it is essential. A bad experience will contain the seed material for making good. A good experience will contain the seed for reinforcement. And some are delighted in their experience regardless of its terms of value.
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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Mar 31, 2017 6:23 pm

scottszone wrote:I state the simply obvious in the spirit of amusement
Ha - I have learned not to do that here (my sense of humour doesn't translate very well) and in doing so perhaps begun to miss others' attempts.
scottszone wrote:and to not lose sight of the forest for the trees
Granted - there are certainly a lot of interesting trees, especially in that thread ...
... I still maintain that the string(s) should get more attention.

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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by Luis_Br » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:43 pm

The correct approach, IMO, is to avoid thinking which joints should move. Think how fingertip should move and its tactile sensations, while keeping an overall relaxed body. When you try to catch a glass on the table, if you think which individual muscles you should move, shoulder, arm or wrist, you won't catch the glass. You just think on the trajectory of the hand, the body takes care of the rest.

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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Fri Mar 31, 2017 8:59 pm

Well, there are different ways of getting different timbres and the like. You should think about how to achieve them.

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scottszone
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by scottszone » Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:53 pm

Robbie Flamerock wrote:Well, there are different ways of getting different timbres and the like. You should think about how to achieve them.
Plucking closer to the neck gets a warmer tone, closer to the bridge gets a brighter tone. Plucking softer will get a quieter sound, plucking harder will get louder. Pluck faster to increase tempo, slower to decrease tempo. Experiment to find the many shades and colors in-between.
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Robbie Flamerock
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:30 pm

Add to that the angle of the nail, using a bouncing attack, tightening or loosening the finger tip. Etc...

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by Denian Arcoleo » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:40 pm

Lawler wrote:
scottszone wrote:focus on the music
Yes. Form follows function.
All those who are under the impression that music-making on the guitar (or any instrument) is about studying the trajectory of the fingers need to read, think about and digest these two statements.

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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by Robbie Flamerock » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:52 pm

It's part of understanding how the fingers work.

Luis_Br
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Re: What is happening with respect to the joints in a effective stroke will occur with the correct approach. How does on

Post by Luis_Br » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:40 pm

Denian Arcoleo wrote:
Lawler wrote:
scottszone wrote:focus on the music
Yes. Form follows function.
All those who are under the impression that music-making on the guitar (or any instrument) is about studying the trajectory of the fingers need to read, think about and digest these two statements.
Well, any other instrument has such discussion of fingers, sound etc. Just google another forum...
On the piano you find a lot of books with much more detailed discussions on physiology of finger/arm movements, if one must use low or high writs, more arm weight or not, or arm rotation vs finger alone. There are plenty of discussions on that. Yyou find even spectral analysis of sound to end up the long discussion whether the player can control the tone through the way he press the keys, including very detailed physical analysis of finger and hammer movements trying to put a theoretical background to that.
I think both things, music and technical aspects are important and they complement each other. Some people can fix their RH or whatever simply through playing and testing alone. I think those are the talented ones. I am not one of those. I was not so bad, but also didn't have so good technique, until I got a teacher who could address very well the physical aspects of playing and corrected my tensions and inconsistencies. Another very important point: he could do this and fix me without ever picking up his guitar. He never plays the guitar during lessons. This same teacher, musically, is also by far superior most guitarists I know. His musical tips were also always great, but one thing does not mean the other is unimportant.

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