A definition of correct tone production (under construction)

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Soundminer
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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by Soundminer » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:17 am

I mean to what point is the string slipping on it's own...or is it more a letting go and 'escorting' type of movement.
I know escorting sounds crazy but I don't know how else to put it.
I think the rolling of the string is due to the finger finding it's grip to be able to let go and slide over the string....while the string slides over the finger.
More a 50/50 type of thing and more to do with reducing the pressure at a certain point then with overcoming it as you put it.

My definition is wrong, although that's how it felt to me when I wrote it....so convinced :lol:
I think something in your story is missing too....although to a high dergree what you describe is what is happening.

The missing part is the magic part.....maybe it can't be put in words. Maybe that's why it is music, because it can't be put in words.

I don't know, it may be impossible or maybe even absurd, but I still think it's worth trying to find the words that come as close as possible.
Last edited by Soundminer on Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Soundminer
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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by Soundminer » Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:29 am

Mark Clifton-Gaultier wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:04 am
guitarrista wrote:Hmm, I am not sure what point/distinction you are making.. also "hear is the "sound" of the restoring force instead of the sound of an applied force"... ??
I think that Soundminer is suggesting that what we hear is simply the result of whatever happens after the release i.e. trajectory, energy decay etc. ... but, as this is entirely the result of what happens prior to that moment should we define the two elements quite so discretely?
Very good point and don't think we should. What happens in between the two elements is what we are trying to describe

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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by guit-box » Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:56 pm

The string is sounded (released) at the moment the middle joint (PIP) changes direction (from extension to flexion). The finger can be pushing the string (displacing the string towards the frets) while the finger is straightening (MCP flexion with PIP extension), but it's not necessary for this pushing to be very aggressive to get a good sound, it can also be a feather-weight touch. More pressing might help to get a solid grip on the string to allow the middle joint to pluck the string and get a louder note, but too much pressing (mostly too much MCP flexion) can get in the way of speed and a relaxed technique. It's important to understand that the amount of pressing is variable. Guitarists must train the coordination of releasing the pressing of the main knuckle joint (allowing it's direction to change) at the moment or milliseconds after the middle joint changes direction and plucks the note. Continued flexion pressure from MCP at the moment the PIP flexes will make your rest strokes feel heavy, like your fingers are sticking to the strings. Doing the same with free strokes will needlessly send the MCP to follow through too far into the palm.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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guitarrista
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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by guitarrista » Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:06 pm

Soundminer wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:38 am

EDIT!!: I no longer stand by this definition, please don't try and and play like this conciously, it's of no use :roll: ..this thread is now more about trying to find a new one.
OK then, my work here is done :wink: Also "guit-box" is now here to help, with his MCP joint eschewal and interesting ideas about physics, so you are in good hands.
Konstantin
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1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Soundminer
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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by Soundminer » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:02 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:06 pm
Soundminer wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:38 am

EDIT!!: I no longer stand by this definition, please don't try and and play like this conciously, it's of no use :roll: ..this thread is now more about trying to find a new one.
OK then, my work here is done :wink: Also "guit-box" is now here to help, with his MCP joint eschewal and interesting ideas about physics, so you are in good hands.
Quitter! :P

Soundminer
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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by Soundminer » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:03 pm

Soundminer wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:02 pm
guitarrista wrote:
Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:06 pm
Soundminer wrote:
Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:38 am

EDIT!!: I no longer stand by this definition, please don't try and and play like this conciously, it's of no use :roll: ..this thread is now more about trying to find a new one.
OK then, my work here is done :wink: Also "guit-box" is now here to help, with his MCP joint eschewal and interesting ideas about physics, so you are in good hands.
Quitter! :P
no really...thnx!!

Soundminer
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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by Soundminer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:06 pm

Thanks to guitarrista and his excellent post and graph I can now formulate a (hopefully) final description on how to 'handle' the string to get a free oscillating sound, i. e., a projecting sound.Which if you ask me is the only standard for correct tone production. The rest is totally based on taste and preference.

So it's important to make a distinction between taste and preference...timbre, volume ect. vs the free oscillating projecting sound on it's own.
I am talking about the latter because if one does not have the skill to produce a sound with that quality first and foremost..well, let's just say that's like trying to build a house with bricks of jello instead of cement. Nobody will enter that house without fearing getting yuckie stuff in their ears.

Ok, sorry for that ridiculous analogy...but it's hard to describe you know.

It's also important to note that this is for people who are NOT satisfied with their tone or (mostly beginning) students who can't seem to get a grip on getting a good one.
It's a matter of days, weeks...months maybe, before these people, students give up...understandably so (nobody likes jello in their ear). It doesn't have to be like this with a better description which involves not only what the finger is doing but also what the string should be doing. This is what is overlooked most of the time in guitar pedagogy in my opinion.


There are two sides to every story and it's amazing how people can put one and one together if you give them the right description. But you have to decribe both sides as best you can. That's your first job as a teacher, to start with the abc's ....so here goes.

:idea:

step 1. make contact and push straight down without letting the string roll around itself
step 2. Pluck/strike/play/swipe the string by changing direction, keep in contact with the string while doing this and feel IT rolling around itself
until it slips free, slides over the fingertip/pick and starts vibrating freely

:idea:


The start of the rolling part is very crucial

1. contact and displacement - No rolling of the string!!
2. play - rolling of the string until it starts to slip and slide on it's own


If one starts the rolling process during step one...which is what most beginners do, due to lack of control and muscle tension...
The string will find it's maximum rolling capacity ( it can't roll no more ) before or during step two.

We DO NOT want this because when this happens...the finger get's stuck to the string and vice versa..and a jerking motion is required to get loose..
The sound that comes from this is very unpleasant. In fact if you slow this sound down with some software (slowdowner!), the beginning of the sound when released with this unavoidable (if step 1 is done wrong) jerking motion.....sounds like a window slamming in the wind....bam bam bam !!! this is followed by a sound that is very invasive and unpleasant...like a loud carhorn. It sounds Forced...which is exactly what it is. It has no build up, no swelling and no change in volume from onset to loudest point

This is because the string can't slide and the 'overrolled' state of the string (tension overload) comes back during the release (jerk) and the string starts rolling back. But, while it does...it bounces up and down against the fingertip!!! leaking all the energy that would have been 'sounded' if the string would have slipped and slided on it's own. This results in a non-free oscillating sound....an obstructed sound.

I don't care what anyone says....Nobody likes this sound..it's not music and never pleasant to the ear.

In comparison, the onset of the sound when part 1 and 2 is done correctly sounds like a wave rolling in on the beach...wuuushhhhhh
This rolling wave is then followed by a clear and pleasant sound that swells up to it's loudest point where it really starts to sing...it has build up and all kind of harmonics within itself.

Kind of Heavenly in fact...music

The hard part for the beginner is really part 1. If done right part 2 sorts itself out mostly....But if part 1 gets ingrained in the muscle memory the wrong way....that's the end for the aspiring guitarplayer! This is why the 'pendulum motion' description is not helpfull at all if you ask me. In fact, the opposite.

So..as teachers, I say hammer that point home first. Then proceed with the fun part..how to make music with this skill. Rythm , chords , melodies, timbre, timing, volume ect ect ect.
Last edited by Soundminer on Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:27 pm, edited 6 times in total.

guit-box
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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by guit-box » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:40 pm

How does a guitar string roll?
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

Soundminer
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Re: A definition of correct tone production (revised 11-7-'17)

Post by Soundminer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:44 pm

around it's own lenght

Soundminer
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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by Soundminer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 2:53 pm

edit ..not quote!!! ( note to self)

guit-box
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Re: A definition of correct tone production (revised 11-7-'17)

Post by guit-box » Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:55 pm

I don't understand. A wheel or a ball can roll, I've never seen a string roll. A video demonstration might be helpful.
An eyewitness will often only see what he already believes to be true.

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guitarrista
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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by guitarrista » Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:53 pm

Soundminer wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:06 pm
Thanks to guitarrista and his excellent post and graph I can now formulate a (hopefully) final description on how to 'handle' the string to get a free oscillating sound, i. e., a projecting sound.

[...]
:idea:

step 1. make contact and push straight down without letting the string roll around itself
step 2. Pluck/strike/play/swipe the string by changing direction, keep in contact with the string while doing this and feel IT rolling around itself until it slips free, slides over the fingertip/pick and starts vibrating freely

:idea:

The start of the rolling part is very crucial

1. contact and displacement - No rolling of the string!!
2. play - rolling of the string until it starts to slip and slide on it's own

If one starts the rolling process during step one...which is what most beginners do, due to lack of control and muscle tension...
[... etc]

Oy. There is so much wrong in this my head hurts. It is good that you are trying to figure things out but I am not sure of the value of doing it in public (and with the attitude of it being didactic) at this stage.
Konstantin
--
1982 Anselmo Solar Gonzalez

Soundminer
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Re: A definition of correct tone production

Post by Soundminer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:24 pm

guitarrista wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:53 pm
Soundminer wrote:
Tue Jul 11, 2017 12:06 pm
Thanks to guitarrista and his excellent post and graph I can now formulate a (hopefully) final description on how to 'handle' the string to get a free oscillating sound, i. e., a projecting sound.

[...]
:idea:

step 1. make contact and push straight down without letting the string roll around itself
step 2. Pluck/strike/play/swipe the string by changing direction, keep in contact with the string while doing this and feel IT rolling around itself until it slips free, slides over the fingertip/pick and starts vibrating freely

:idea:

The start of the rolling part is very crucial

1. contact and displacement - No rolling of the string!!
2. play - rolling of the string until it starts to slip and slide on it's own

If one starts the rolling process during step one...which is what most beginners do, due to lack of control and muscle tension...
[... etc]

Oy. There is so much wrong in this my head hurts. It is good that you are trying to figure things out but I am not sure of the value of doing it in public (and with the attitude of it being didactic) at this stage.

what's so wrong ? What's different from your post with the graph? Why are you being a bit condescending ? Can't you just say where you think it's so wrong instead of just announcing it's wrong ? You can use as many words or less as your last reply...doesn't have to be an essay or anything. And it's perfectly fine if you are not sure what the value is, no problem.

say what is right ...and correct the wrong.. I'm not trying to be didactic although I can see why would say that. Just my style. It's A definition...not THE....for that we all kinda have to agree. So work with me..or don't. I don't get this reply cause I'm not really contradicting your post in any way. I'm confirming it. And I think it's brilliant....where do you get this info?? I've asked you before but no reply

Soundminer
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Re: A definition of correct tone production (revised 11-7-'17)

Post by Soundminer » Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:44 pm

Additionally, as I mentioned elsewhere previously, the actual fingertip-string interaction involves (1) string displacement generally into soundboard, (2) string rolling around itself (and thus travelling a bit toward your fingertip) until static friction is overcome(*), (3) string slipping around fingertip/nail, (4) free oscillation (which is like a narrow ellipse trajectory in the frame of the graph below as it has mostly cross- but some along-soundboard component).
Your words no?

I think 2 and 3 as you put it here can be described as one because the sliding of the string is not really under your control...it's a consequence of doing 1 and 2 correctly

so. 1. string displacement into soundboard 2. string rolling around itself until static friction is overcome

I'm not saying any different....

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Yisrael van Handel
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Re: A definition of correct tone production (revised 11-7-'17)

Post by Yisrael van Handel » Tue Jul 11, 2017 8:02 pm

Why so complicated? I never understood why we are not taught correct tone production very early on. It is not difficult. It is also not difficult to describe.
  1. Plant finger on string.
  2. Press DOWN (and no other direction) to compress the flesh slightly.
  3. Press until the string just touches the nail in the middle or slighly to the left of the middle line of the nail.
  4. Flex the finger from the metacarpophalangeal joint as if making a fist.
Do this in very slow motion until you produce a substantial, round tone with no nail noise. First practice at 45­­° to the string. Notice that I did not say anything about nail shape. There are three reasons for that.
  • Technique is more important than nail shape, as long as the nail surface is polished and smooth.
  • The optimal nail shape is different for each finger.
  • Once you have the right technique, you should experiment with nail shapes to see which works. Try slight slope downward to the left; and try downward to the right.
The important part is to find the correction point of contact between the fingertip and the string, so that you just release the string at the exact moment that the nail touches the string. Nails should be short and filed with only very slight curvature (that is, nearly straight).
If all else fails, get a copy of Classical Guitar Technique from Foundation to Virtuosity by Stanley Yates, and study Part 1, Lesson 2, "Fingernails."
Yisrael van Handel
Modi'in Ilit, Israel

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