Rubato in Baroque music

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
Forum rules
IV Laws governing the quotation/citation of music


For discussion of studies, scales, arpeggios and theory.
Rognvald
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 am

Re: Rubato in Baroque music

Post by Rognvald » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:35 pm

celestemcc wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:01 am
It was a practice among many Baroque composers
It's not her tempo I question at all -- I've played it, and at pretty much the speed she does. And she is quite accomplished for sure and clearly loves the piece. It's the hesitation -- the rubato, for lack of another word, that she does with the motif. And that she does it every time it occurs. A bit exaggerated, too Romantic. Ironically I was just listening to the Merz transcription of Schubert's "Staendchen" where this kind of rubato is absolutely perfect.

Hi, C,
I guess it is why some prefer escargot while others . . . blue points on the half-shell. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: Rubato in Baroque music

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:25 pm

celestemcc wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:47 pm
There's a video of Tatyana Ryzhkova playing BWV 998 - plenty of Rubato here - a bit too much, for me I think
Oy, way too much. Even on the opening motif, the d-c#-d. And every time it came up. Too much for me as well.

Bach can be phrased beautifully without "rubato"...
Ugh, that was really difficult to sit through. While there is indeed a difference between flexibility and sheer inaccuracy, that's not really the problem; its the overindulgence, randomly interspersed with the properly in time, that makes it not work on any level - for me.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

celestemcc
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 5:43 pm

Re: Rubato in Baroque music

Post by celestemcc » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:16 pm

While there is indeed a difference between flexibility and sheer inaccuracy, that's not really the problem; its the overindulgence, randomly interspersed with the properly in time, that makes it not work on any level - for me.
Well stated.
2015 Connor spruce/Indian rosewood
1978 Ramirez 1a cedar

Rognvald
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 am

Re: Rubato in Baroque music

Post by Rognvald » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:52 pm

Stephen Kenyon wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:25 pm
celestemcc wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:47 pm
There's a video of Tatyana Ryzhkova playing BWV 998 - plenty of Rubato here - a bit too much, for me I think
Oy, way too much. Even on the opening motif, the d-c#-d. And every time it came up. Too much for me as well.

Bach can be phrased beautifully without "rubato"...
Ugh, that was really difficult to sit through. While there is indeed a difference between flexibility and sheer inaccuracy, that's not really the problem; its the overindulgence, randomly interspersed with the properly in time, that makes it not work on any level - for me.

Hi, Stephen,
Not even the red high heels??? Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

celestemcc
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 5:43 pm

Re: Rubato in Baroque music

Post by celestemcc » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:01 pm

its the overindulgence, randomly interspersed with the properly in time, that makes it not work on any level - for me.
I happened to find Ana Vidovic's video of the 998 Prelude on the same Youtube page as Tatyana's. A better performance, I think; beautifully phrased but with ideal forward movement, great phrasing, and no rubato. Also was interested comparing these two performers (they were the ones at hand, so to speak) on the Prelude to the First Cello Suite BWV 1007. Tatyana's performance here is less indulgent than the 998; still though I prefer Ana's version of the 1007, at least in terms of interpretation. Actually like Tatyana's transcription a bit better. Details, details! :D
2015 Connor spruce/Indian rosewood
1978 Ramirez 1a cedar

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: Rubato in Baroque music

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:21 pm

Rognvald wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:52 pm
...
Not even the red high heels??? Playing again . . . Rognvald
Sure you noticed I purposely avoided mention of the, ahem, visual aspects...
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

User avatar
Stephen Kenyon
Teacher
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:26 am
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, England

Re: Rubato in Baroque music

Post by Stephen Kenyon » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:27 pm

celestemcc wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:01 pm
...
I happened to find Ana Vidovic's video of the 998 Prelude on the same Youtube page as Tatyana's. A better performance, I think; beautifully phrased but with ideal forward movement, great phrasing, and no rubato. ... Details, details! :D
Well there was just enough rubato for me, so there must have been some :)

...details there, well recording a Smallman (or similar) so close made it harsh and unfriendly, having the mics up where the high camera angle was would have been about right for me.
Simon Ambridge Series 40 (2005)
Trevor Semple Series 88 (1992)
Louis Panormo (1838)
Alexander Batov Baroque Guitar (2013)

celestemcc
Posts: 720
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 5:43 pm

Re: Rubato in Baroque music

Post by celestemcc » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:43 pm

Can't disagree. Loved Ana's interpretations but did not adore the guitar sound.
2015 Connor spruce/Indian rosewood
1978 Ramirez 1a cedar

Rognvald
Posts: 226
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:21 am

Re: Rubato in Baroque music

Post by Rognvald » Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:12 pm

For those interested in pursuing this idea further, I suggest "Baroque Music Style and Performance: A Handbook by Robert Donington," 1982 W.W. Norton and Company New York/London. This outstanding book gives an exhaustive, historic look into Baroque Music as well as dispelling many modern misconceptions concerning its performance. There is not, however, a chapter on the presence of red, high-heeled shoes and their effect on rubato. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

PeteJ
Posts: 656
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2016 12:52 pm

Re: Rubato in Baroque music

Post by PeteJ » Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:43 pm

It seems to be part of Bach's genius that his music can survive almost any treatment. For me there it is not so much whether rubato is right or wrong but just whether the performance has internal integrity. It would be dull if we all did it the same.

Return to “Classical Guitar technique”