Can You Play a Simple Song?

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Rognvald
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:05 am

khayes wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:52 am
Rognvald wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:04 am
... I have said for years that I can tell you everything I need to know about a person without talking to them and by just listening to them play. It is a roadmap far more detailed than any conversation would reveal....
I'm really trying to get my head around your philosophy. Maybe you could explain how you arrived at this idea.

Hi, K,
Of course, I didn't mean this literally . . . but figuratively speaking. Even at an elementary level, there are personality traits that are revealed about a musician. Is he bold, timid, expressive, conservative, thoughtful, dull, etc. when he plays? Excellent teachers can see this very quickly with their beginning students in spite of their limited technique and initial insecurity with the instrument. This knowledge is also fundamental to whether a great teacher will accept certain students for advanced study. They don't want to waste their limited time with a student they do not believe has potential to be a special player, not just a better one. That's the difference studying with an "artist" or just a good teacher. A great friend of mine, who has since deceased, was the principal bassist with the Chicago Lyric Opera for 40 years. His time was very limited by his concert schedule, studio work, gigs and personal life and he would never accept a new student without an audition. He told me he never judged by technique alone but whether he felt the student had the potential for musicality. Many times an audition would last less than a minute and at other times he would listen for up to a half hour before making his decision. He was a very kind person but he never encouraged a student that he believed lacked real potential. How did he do this? By listening to them play. I hope this helps. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

davekear
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by davekear » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:25 am

If you have a student he should be encouraged no matter what. I don't think anyone should be so judgemental. I've had students that had less natural talent than others, but had more drive and discipline. I've had students that have totally surprised me with their talent as it unexpectedly blossomed. I think those who overly criticize others' playing, interpretation, learning potential, etc. are basically jealous, untalented, negative people. I stay away from them. These are the type of folks who give a thumbs down on a beautiful piece of music on YouTube by David Russell or Eliot Fisk or? Watch out for those who criticize too much. Anyone can find mistakes if they look hard enough. Those types of folks rarely enjoy any part of the music.

PeteJ
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by PeteJ » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:20 pm

For the average teacher it would be out of order to make such judgements, as you say, but for a top teacher working with serious artists they have to make them. To call them jealous, untalented, negative etc is to misunderstand their teaching role. They are not teaching beginners.

soltirefa
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by soltirefa » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:15 pm

Someone should write a simple song called, "Can You Play a Simple Song?"

Rognvald
Posts: 279
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:57 pm

davekear wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:25 am
If you have a student he should be encouraged no matter what. I don't think anyone should be so judgemental. I've had students that had less natural talent than others, but had more drive and discipline. I've had students that have totally surprised me with their talent as it unexpectedly blossomed. I think those who overly criticize others' playing, interpretation, learning potential, etc. are basically jealous, untalented, negative people. I stay away from them. These are the type of folks who give a thumbs down on a beautiful piece of music on YouTube by David Russell or Eliot Fisk or? Watch out for those who criticize too much. Anyone can find mistakes if they look hard enough. Those types of folks rarely enjoy any part of the music.
Hi, Dave,
Isn't fair and honest criticism the path to human excellence in all endeavors? How then would people be able to hone their Art if someone with an honest, critical eye didn't point the way to excellence? And, how cruel is it for a teacher to encourage a student with desires for a professional performing career in Music when he clearly doesn't have the "stuff?" We live in an age of fear of hurting peoples feelings and we lie to them and tell them they can be anything they want to be. This is not helpful to a person but is cruel and deceptive since they will discover quickly they have been living a delusional existence. Take the example of a baseball player in the minor leagues whose dream is to become a major league player but he's only hitting 200 in the minors and can't hit a slider or a 90 plus mph fastball. Would it be unfair for his coach to tell him he will never make it to the Majors? It has nothing to do with the critic being "jealous, untalented, negative people" but rather someone with great experience and talent honestly evaluating a person. My case in point, above, cited one of the country's top string bass players who played well into his eighties and had a professional career of over 60 years. Do you think when he auditioned students that he was just looking for mistakes and that a professional life of over 60 years in Music was because he didn't "enjoy any part of the music?" For most, music is a very rewarding hobby and it touches people in a way that very few things in life can accomplish. We just need to be honest with ourselves and with others and to be considerate of others feelings in doing so. By the way . . . . are you ready for that 94 mph fastball? Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

davekear
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Location: California

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by davekear » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:58 pm

I'm all for constructive "criticism" But you have to be able to differentiate between that and just being an ass.

Rognvald
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:18 pm

davekear wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:58 pm
I'm all for constructive "criticism" But you have to be able to differentiate between that and just being an ass.

And who makes that determination, Dave? In today's world, objectivity is gone and subjectivity reigns. If honest criticism is perceived by one out of a hundred as "just being an ass," must we acquiesce to the lone voice to save humanity from someone's hurt feelings? Life is full of rude awakenings from honest people with good intentions and you can choose to accept them as valid criticism or you can hide under the cloak of unreasonable sensitivity and delusion. There are generations of people today that have been told by society that there is no such thing as failure and that you can be anything you want to be . . . but one day, they must look at themselves in the mirror and come to terms with the falsehoods with which they've been living. We are not all equally intelligent. We are not all equally talented. We are not all equally attractive. And, we have 6 million years of hominid evolution as our evidence. Playing again . . . Rognvald
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

davekear
Posts: 265
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Location: California

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by davekear » Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:56 pm

Rognvald maybe you have a point. Do you have any videos of your guitar playing I can watch? I've been a very successful musician/guitarist for over 45 years now, lots of studio work, was on the road for many years, I've taught for many years....I think I'm qualified to judge your guitar playing. Let me know where I can hear you play, and I'll give you an honest critique. I'll let you know if you have what it takes, and whether you should give it up or not. Maybe you shouldn't be "playing again". I'll let you know if you should keep playing or just quit while you're ahead.

Rognvald
Posts: 279
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Rognvald » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:35 am

davekear wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 11:56 pm
Rognvald maybe you have a point. Do you have any videos of your guitar playing I can watch? I've been a very successful musician/guitarist for over 45 years now, lots of studio work, was on the road for many years, I've taught for many years....I think I'm qualified to judge your guitar playing. Let me know where I can hear you play, and I'll give you an honest critique. I'll let you know if you have what it takes, and whether you should give it up or not. Maybe you shouldn't be "playing again". I'll let you know if you should keep playing or just quit while you're ahead.
Oh, yes, Dave,
In the Y2K, one cannot be a musician without a video. You must have a video. I almost forgot. However, I have never made any pretensions about devoting my life to become a concert artist. And, if I did, I would have seriously considered the advice of my teachers--two of whom are notable performing artists today. And, if they said years ago my chances were slim, I would have heeded their experienced advice. My goal in music was always to be a good performing musician and, at times in my life, I have fulfilled that goal. However, unlike your bio above, I pursued other talents as a career that for me were much more financially rewarding than a life in music and have allowed me to live a lifestyle where I could "have my cake and eat it too" so to speak. I have never regretted that decision for the richness of experience it has given my life but now after a rather long, recent forced hiatus, I am playing again and reviving my chops . . . and enjoying it very much. So, thanks for the offer but before I can be considered a good musician, I'll need to record a video and submit it for your approval. And, I am absolutely certain that you would be scrupulously fair, and impartial . . . Playing again . . . Rognvald P.S. After further consideration, perhaps you might like to see me perform in an old Ed Sullivan rerun as a sideman for the famous Topo Gigio. I'm the one wearing the brown cap. https://youtu.be/garNxavx8gY
"And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music." Friedrich Nietzsche, Thus Spake Zarathustra

Jeffrey Armbruster
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:40 am

I take that to mean that Rognvald can't play a simple song.
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
Takamine C132S

praneeth.gadam
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Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by praneeth.gadam » Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:43 am

Wuuthrad wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:42 am
Yup. I think classical guitarists should learn to improvise too. And chordally.

Also, in my sometimes humble opinion, I think that the rhythm and phrasing of many modern players I hear is lacking.

History of guitar music includes improvisation; I fail to see where and how this was lost in classical.

I think people should be dancing to the guitar, but many players remind me of a human piano roll...
How does one go about 'learning to improvise'? Are there any techniques, methods, resources to help out?

I have been learning guitar for over an year now, but feel like I simply move on from one peice to the next without knowing what I am retaining.

Thanks!

davekear
Posts: 265
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Location: California

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by davekear » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:15 am

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:40 am
I take that to mean that Rognvald can't play a simple song.
Of course not. you missed the point.

davekear
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:12 am
Location: California

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by davekear » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:32 am

praneeth.gadam wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:43 am
Wuuthrad wrote:
Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:42 am
Yup. I think classical guitarists should learn to improvise too. And chordally.

How does one go about 'learning to improvise'? Are there any techniques, methods, resources to help out?

I have been learning guitar for over an year now, but feel like I simply move on from one peice to the next without knowing what I am retaining.

Thanks!
If you go to YouTube and type in "guitar rhythm backing track", you'll find lots of different rhythm styles you can improvise to. Great for practicing scales.

Jeffrey Armbruster
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Location: Berkeley, California

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by Jeffrey Armbruster » Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:48 am

davekear wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:15 am
Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:40 am
I take that to mean that Rognvald can't play a simple song.
Of course not. you missed the point.
My apologies. I'm sure that Rognvald is a competent player. God forbid he ever teaches young people.
Paul Weaver spruce 2014
Takamine C132S

davekear
Posts: 265
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:12 am
Location: California

Re: Can You Play a Simple Song?

Post by davekear » Tue Dec 05, 2017 3:19 am

Jeffrey Armbruster wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:40 am


My apologies. I'm sure that Rognvald is a competent player. God forbid he ever teaches young people.
I don't think anyone should ever tell another that they will never be good enough at something. I think a teacher's roll should be to help those who want to learn the best they can. I've been surprised many times by students who didn't necessarily start out too well. If one is not talented enough to be accepted by an advanced class, that's a different thing. Maybe one day they will. But never tell anyone they don't have, and never will have enough talent to do something they want to learn how to do .

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