Andres Segovia

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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MikFik

Post by MikFik » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:56 am

Am I really reading critisisms of a man who devoted his life to the advancement of the CG by a bunch of amatuers. I must ask, What right do we have to judge Segovia. I saw him live at his last performance and yes - he had problems but he still had remarkable tone and one could still hear the devotion he always played with even though he made mistakes (who doesn't?) and he was so old he could barely get to his chair on stage. I think we should all be more carefull and more respectfull when it comes to judging the quality of others talents. If one has the extra time to write critisisms of others, maybe that time would be better spent practicing their own skill.

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owl
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Post by owl » Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:10 am

MikFik... I think you are 'getting out of your tree' for no reason here.
While your defence of the great man is admirable I believe this thread is more a discussion on Segovia rather than an all out criticism :roll:

Many of the posters here have much admiration for Segovia, and I think we all agree that what he has done for modern classical guitar is unsurpassed.

Of course, anyone in the public eye is open to criticism and Segovia is no exception.
Take it all with a grain of salt mate! :lol:

Owl
PS. I think Segovia is very close to God status by the way! :shock:
Never, ever give up!... I leave my songprint on your heart.

bones

Post by bones » Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:43 pm

MikFik wrote:Am I really reading critisisms of a man who devoted his life to the advancement of the CG by a bunch of amatuers. I must ask, What right do we have to judge Segovia. I saw him live at his last performance and yes - he had problems but he still had remarkable tone and one could still hear the devotion he always played with even though he made mistakes (who doesn't?) and he was so old he could barely get to his chair on stage. I think we should all be more carefull and more respectfull when it comes to judging the quality of others talents. If one has the extra time to write critisisms of others, maybe that time would be better spent practicing their own skill.
Have to agree with what Owl says MikFik (usually do, she's clearly not called Owl for nothing) develop a thick skin when using forums because sooner or later someone or a topic will really wind you up, often has to do with mood I find. Segovia is the most inspiring musician I have ever listened too and I include Casals, Laroccha, Heifitz, Michelangeli, Glen Gould, Arrau as being some of my favourite musician, he has a great musical sensibility, he finds nuance in nuance! I could go on, listen to him everyday and learn.

Nick Cutroneo
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Post by Nick Cutroneo » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:09 pm

I bought the Box set of 4 CDs of Segovia...and inside they give a really great history of his life. As others have said, he was a 19th century romantic living in the 20th century. I've started really get into Segovia a lot more, listening not only to arrangements, but pieces written for him and the like. He really had a presence on the guitar. There is no doubt about the fact that what he was playing was because he heard it that way. And there's no reason why we shouldn't enjoy it. He's looked upon as a huge influence because of what he did for the instrument, creating a huge repertoire of not only original works, but transcriptions and arrangements as well.

The problem was, is that for a long period of time, Segovia was looked as the end all of guitar. You had to do it his way, his fingerings, his interpretations, his repertoire, then Bream, and Williams came out, and showed us different sides to how those same pieces could be played, AND new repertoire. While I'm not a huge Bream fan, he did extend the guitar repertoire again, but this time adding very modern pieces into the mix, and Williams, well he did that AND found the music of Barrios, who was unknown until the 1960s.

Sure are there 'better guitarists' out there...technically better, yes. But Segovia phrased like an SOB, and while it may have been taken a bit overboard with huge rubato vibrato and what some might consider out of time playing/changing music, this is what he heard in his head for the piece. Being the type of personality he had, you either accepted it, or he didn't want to hear from you.

I truly enjoy his playing. Will I ever play a piece like him, HELL NO! But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy it. And this is what people have to accept, is that they can enjoy someone's playing, find it musically valid (perhaps a bit dated?) and yet still disagree with it. This is why music is so great. People ask how can you make a piece unique, and what it comes down to, is what does the piece say to you. What do you want to bring out of a piece, and what you bring out will be different then what 10 other people will do, and that's a unique interpretation.

Astra Piotr

Post by Astra Piotr » Tue Jul 17, 2007 4:40 pm

I wanted to post a similar question but gave up as I didn't want to make blasphemous remarks :? so I find the thread very interesting.

I have a few CDs with Segovia's recordings and there's another thing that the technology of those days and recording techniques (I mean 30s and 40s) didn't do Segovia's justice. That's the reason I'm spoilt by clear sound of todays recordings

Another thing is that although Segovia laid down the foundations, people who followed him didn't stop at that point but moved on. And in consequence, it is possible that many modern guitarists are at least as good as the Grat Master.

By the way, why did you say that other musicians like violin players or cello players look down on guitarist? I think that if there are some who do so, they must be the ones who are narrow-minded. Great Paganini appriciated the guitar ( I've read, not sure if it's true though, that all in all he composed more for the guitar), Chopin appreciated the guitar so why sholud some run-of the-mill musicians bash the guitar music?
And besides, Is it a sport competition or rivarly between army services?
You know what I mean "We are the best as we are the Marine Corps! No the fighter pilots are the elite! B.........t! Only tank drivers and the artillery!" And they get black eyes and blooded noses after a few beers.

That's music so we can enjoy the violin as well as the piano and the guitar, can't we?

Sorry for this side track :oops:

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freestroke
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Post by freestroke » Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:12 pm

Astra Piotr wrote: Great Paganini appriciated the guitar ( I've read, not sure if it's true though, that all in all he composed more for the guitar)
I've heard that taken a step further, but I also don't know whether it's true: Paganini's *main* instrument was the guitar, ie, violin was his "second fiddle". :lol: He played violin because that's where the big bucks were. Couldn't bring in the crowds with the guitar.
Hell is full of amateur musicians -- GB Shaw

tremolo_jones

It's not a horserace.

Post by tremolo_jones » Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:31 am

So I was in my car and I turned on the radio because I realized it was time for "Classical Guitar Alive." First thing that came on was someone performing Ponce's "Sonata Romantica." I was shocked at the dead way this fabulous music was being played. OBVIOUSLY it wasn't Segovia. When it ended they announced the performer--a big-name, former contest winner--someone that is touted as a great MUSICIAN.

Segovia had magic in his playing. Oh, he missed a note here and there and on his recordings you could always hear the string squeeks. His runs weren't as fast or as punctuated as others but when he played there was magic.

I recall hearing a recording of Segovia playing a little piece by Sor. I was enchanted by this wonderful piece of music. I looked it up (not so easy back then when the complete works were not available in print and the internet was still a dream). I played through it and was totally unimpressed. Somehow Segovia had seen the beauty hidden in this little, unimpressive piece. I could play it--no problem but only Segovia could give it the magic he did.

Before Segovia it was guitarists playing for each other mainly. He created audiences of non-guitarists. When Bream and Williams were coming up there were people who were classical guitar fans due to Segovia. Without him Bream and Williams would have had a gargantuan task to be even taken seriously by the musical world.

Now that Segovia is fading into memory I'm afraid that the guitar world is reverting to a souped-up version of the pre-Segovia days. Concerts by cg players are attended mainly by other guitar players who are more interested in being blown away by amazing technical prowess than being enchanted by musical artistry. Segovia had musical artistry.

After my experience with the "Sonata Romantica" on the radio I went home and put on Segovia's recording of it.

Magic.

cheers

t_j

brian
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Post by brian » Sun Jul 22, 2007 5:55 pm

segovia was lucky llobet died young (no offence).
he would have given segovia a run for
him money. plus, having another tarrega student
teaching would have changed the cg landscape i'd like to believe.
and, we'd have had some nice recordings of his torres.
IMHO mostly :wink:

Nick Cutroneo
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Post by Nick Cutroneo » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:29 pm

brian wrote:segovia was lucky llobet died young (no offence).
he would have given segovia a run for
him money. plus, having another tarrega student
teaching would have changed the cg landscape i'd like to believe.
and, we'd have had some nice recordings of his torres.
IMHO mostly :wink:
Funny you mention him, because I'm pretty sure I was talking to my luthier about llobet just the other day. I'm no sure...lol...my memory is quite bad with names and such. I've heard a lot of him...but never heard his playing...I'm quite interested.

brian
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Post by brian » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:39 pm

hey shreda-
been bumping into you a lot today!!! :shock:

there are only a few recordings, maybe one disc
that is really old and the quality is the pits.
strangely, segovia said they should be destroyed
out of respect to llobets abilities. he never said that about his
own early recordings!!

the thing about llobet is, he was touring all over the place,
same time/if not earlier than segovia, also was hanging out with
hauser, in fact introduced segovia to hauser. he was doing a ton
for the classical guitar and it's a real loss he didn't live.
his catalan folk songs are as popular as ever.
i just think it would have been nice to have him on the
other side of segovia on the cg see-saw.

Nick Cutroneo
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Post by Nick Cutroneo » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:53 pm

I've never heard any of Llobet's playing, but I'm sure that it would have made the 'Segovia revolution' a bit more interesting, having 2 top guitarists around during the same period.

As for bumping into you...its not my fault you're following me :wink:

brian
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Post by brian » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:57 pm

shreda-
see below :arrow:
Last edited by brian on Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

brian
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Post by brian » Sun Jul 22, 2007 8:58 pm

that place that is a river in the jungle has it.(boycott link) :?
type in llobet, 1/2 way down the page.
boxed set!! :shock:
going to go check out the samples, if any.....

Nick Cutroneo
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Post by Nick Cutroneo » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:03 pm

Why is it boycotted anyway (and before anyone tells me to go read anything...its definitely NOT explained in the rules and regs.)

Anyway, I'll definitely look into this. I'm quite interested....THANKS!

brian
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Post by brian » Sun Jul 22, 2007 9:06 pm

no sound samples!
seems to be carried by a lot of places though.

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