Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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Jeremy

Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby Jeremy » Sat Nov 03, 2007 2:52 am

Has anyone used the left hand exercises? I've ordered the book, as it is quite cheap and I figured they must be fairly good, Segovia's slur technique was quite good in my opinion. Does anyone have any opinions regarding these exercises? Are there any better alternatives?

David_Raleigh_Arnold

Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby David_Raleigh_Arnold » Sun Nov 04, 2007 1:07 pm

Jeremy wrote:Has anyone used the left hand exercises? I've ordered the book, as it is quite cheap and I figured they must be fairly good, Segovia's slur technique was quite good in my opinion. Does anyone have any opinions regarding these exercises? Are there any better alternatives?


Segovia's slur exercises are completely worthless. See my "Power Slurs". Legnani had a better idea with chromatic octaves, and that is also on my site.

Jeremy

Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby Jeremy » Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:08 am

What would you say is wrong with them? They clearly are not worthless, they worked for Segovia. After the book arrives I'll compare them with yours.

David_Raleigh_Arnold

Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby David_Raleigh_Arnold » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:17 pm

Jeremy wrote:What would you say is wrong with them? They clearly are not worthless, they worked for Segovia. After the book arrives I'll compare them with yours.


His slur exercises did not work for Segovia, they worked against him. He would have done much better with Tarrega's. He could have played the slurs in HVL with my fingering: 343412 343412 343412 instead of changing a note and chickening out. If I had known Tarrega's slur stuff I would have adopted it. I do not doubt that someday people will think that I did.

I don't know what stage you're at. See my web site. "Mine" start in the middle, with power slurs. Carcassi starts at the beginning, with a very intelligent approach, which I present on the site to some extent and endorse wholeheartedly. Don't wait for the Segovia book. For beginning, Carcassi makes the most sense. If you are not beginning, then you have no reason to wait anyway.

fretfull

Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby fretfull » Mon Nov 05, 2007 12:44 pm

David_Raleigh_Arnold wrote:
Jeremy wrote:Has anyone used the left hand exercises? I've ordered the book, as it is quite cheap and I figured they must be fairly good, Segovia's slur technique was quite good in my opinion. Does anyone have any opinions regarding these exercises? Are there any better alternatives?


Segovia's slur exercises are completely worthless. See my "Power Slurs". Legnani had a better idea with chromatic octaves, and that is also on my site.



Thank you, Master Po! Slurs are my weakest technique so far and I will make good use of your exercises.

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Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby Luis_Br » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:47 pm

I think the way you practice and play is much more important than the exercises temselves. If you play with a bad posture, bad finger positioning, bad use of arm weight etc., no exercise will improve your playing ability. David exercises are interesting, Pujol already mention to practice slurs using maximum force and amplitude of the movement to build up the muscles.
But playing with a wrong movement will only improve "bad movements" and may cause several injuries. I strongly recommend you do not practice this without proper orientation. Look for a good teacher, that would be the best thing to do.

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Juergen Schenk
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Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby Juergen Schenk » Mon Nov 05, 2007 6:52 pm

Luis_Br wrote:I think the way you practice and play is much more important than the exercises temselves. If you play with a bad posture, bad finger positioning, bad use of arm weight etc., no exercise will improve your playing ability.

I agree with you, Luis-Br. You can also work on technical problems making your own exercises. For example: when you have a piece with slurs, you take the slurs out of the piece and use phantasy and creativity for your own exercises-you could call it improvisation :idea:
fretfull wrote:Look for a good teacher, that would be the best thing to do.

...and a good teacher will help you too, self-evident. I started to play the guitar as a child in an autodidactic way and was so happy, when I got lessons with a teacher, who could answer my many questions...

fretfull

Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby fretfull » Mon Nov 05, 2007 7:10 pm

scheju wrote:
Luis_Br wrote:I think the way you practice and play is much more important than the exercises temselves. If you play with a bad posture, bad finger positioning, bad use of arm weight etc., no exercise will improve your playing ability.

I agree with you, Luis-Br. You can also work on technical problems making your own exercises. For example: when you have a piece with slurs, you take the slurs out of the piece and use phantasy and creativity for your own exercises-you could call it improvisation :idea:
fretfull wrote:Look for a good teacher, that would be the best thing to do.

...and a good teacher will help you too, self-evident. I started to play the guitar as a child in an autodidactic way and was so happy, when I got lessons with a teacher, who could answer my many questions...


Wasn't me, Dude!

David_Raleigh_Arnold

Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby David_Raleigh_Arnold » Mon Nov 05, 2007 9:17 pm

Luis_Br wrote:I think the way you practice and play is much more important than the exercises temselves. If you play with a bad posture, bad finger positioning, bad use of arm weight etc., no exercise will improve your playing ability. David exercises are interesting, Pujol already mention to practice slurs using maximum force and amplitude of the movement to build up the muscles.
But playing with a wrong movement will only improve "bad movements" and may cause several injuries. I strongly recommend you do not practice this without proper orientation. Look for a good teacher, that would be the best thing to do.


I agree that the most important thing is quality, not repetitions. But it is important to practice one slur at a time to build strength in the slur, and to avoid slur exercises which are combinations and not music, because such exercises have no clear goal. Pujol's book, like others, is chock full of meaningless combinations. Once you have the strength in the sound of the slur, and endurance, nothing but music will do to go on from there. Combinations do nothing for endurance. Only one slur at a time gets that without a huge waste of time. Combinations are like training for a marathon and taking a break every mile. Doesn't work. Doesn't make sense.

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Juergen Schenk
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Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby Juergen Schenk » Wed Nov 07, 2007 7:03 pm

fretfull wrote:Wasn't me, Dude!


Excuse me, fretfull. Think I'm a victim of the Forum-Software
:bye:

tremolo_jones

Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby tremolo_jones » Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:16 pm

Luis_Br wrote:I think the way you practice and play is much more important than the exercises temselves.


AMEN.

Segovia's slur exercises are not "completely worthless." But there's nothing magic about them. You can do anyone's slur exercises in a way that will hurt your playing ability; You can do anyone's slur exercises in a way that will help your playing ability.

Before Segovia's slur exercises were published they were on a single sheet which was photocopied and passed around among guitarists. Each exercise was to be done up and down a single string shifting one fret per repetition. The booklet just copies out each repetition so that it takes many pages to write it out.

Slurs demand basic left-hand finger independence. One finger stays still while another finger moves vigorously. This goes against all our "training" in life where we use our hands as claws to grab things (door knobs, baseball bats etc.) The tendency is to bring extra effort into play to FORCE the non-moving finger to stay still. This leads to tension in the hand which gets transmitted to all the fingers, including the slurring finger. The trick is to have the non-moving finger still by giving "energy" only to the slurring finger. Working toward an independent, non-tensing action of the fingers is infinitely more important than whose name is on the slur exercises you are doing. Don't try to "muscle" your way though any slur exercises, try instead to gain relaxed control over each finger (starting with your shoulder-elbow etc.).

That said, I (surprise!) think that my booklet of slur exercises is the best.

cheers

t_j

twistedblues
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Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby twistedblues » Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:37 pm

David_Raleigh_Arnold wrote:
Jeremy wrote:Has anyone used the left hand exercises? I've ordered the book, as it is quite cheap and I figured they must be fairly good, Segovia's slur technique was quite good in my opinion. Does anyone have any opinions regarding these exercises? Are there any better alternatives?


Segovia's slur exercises are completely worthless. See my "Power Slurs". Legnani had a better idea with chromatic octaves, and that is also on my site.


Link?

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guitarrista
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Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby guitarrista » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:29 pm

twistedblues wrote:
David_Raleigh_Arnold wrote:
Jeremy wrote:Has anyone used the left hand exercises? I've ordered the book, as it is quite cheap and I figured they must be fairly good, Segovia's slur technique was quite good in my opinion. Does anyone have any opinions regarding these exercises? Are there any better alternatives?


Segovia's slur exercises are completely worthless. See my "Power Slurs". Legnani had a better idea with chromatic octaves, and that is also on my site.


Link?

He would not answer as he seems no longer to be a member here, but I think this is what he is referring to:
[ oops - link was blocked ]

Go to Google and search for 'David Raleigh Arnold Power Slurs' and it should be the first returned link.
Last edited by guitarrista on Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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twistedblues
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Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby twistedblues » Wed Feb 15, 2017 8:31 pm

Thank you!

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Rick Beauregard
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Re: Opinions on Segovia's 'Slur Exercises and Chromatic Octaves'

Postby Rick Beauregard » Wed Feb 15, 2017 9:35 pm

From your humble perpetual student: Power slurs are indeed quite useful for developing strength and endurance. But Segovia's combinations are not just about strength. They are about building the brain synapses for finger independence and for coordination between the left and right hands through repetition, IMHO. If you want an even more radical approach, see Sakari's method. (He also says Segovia's slurs are worthless and insists you don't play music until you've completed his entire tortuous regimen). I think there is value in all these approaches and no point in denigrating one over the other. None is the holy grail, and none work for everybody. I agree with a previous poster it's how you practice and how hard you work at it.

Full disclosure: I've started Sakari (without the zealotry of abstaining from music) and am seeing benefits. I did Power slurs for a long time and built up my strength and go back to it time to time. I go through a few Segovia Slurs every day.
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