Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Classical Guitar technique: studies, scales, arpeggios, theory
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cjParsonson

Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby cjParsonson » Fri Dec 03, 2010 10:51 am

Kitharologus is not meant to be used as a single source for improving technique, neither should it be used without a teacher. Iznaola makes this perfectly clear in the book, he also makes it perfectly clear that the professional or college level student will not improve without 2-3 hours practice a day. If you are not a professional or enrolled on a guitar performance course then you don't have to be using the book in that way.

I think its a fantastic book, I use it but I also take lessons. I'm not a professional or a college level student so while I take on certain aspects of the routine approach ie: splitting up my practice, not practicing everything every day. I don't feel I have to be using it in such a heavy, intense way.
It really gives me extra exercises to work on, to support those given to me by my teacher. If used in conjunction with Iznaola's great little manual on practicing I think its a priceless work.

Personally I don't believe the 'Just play music' approach is very sensible, you should do this for fun but if that's your entire approach I feel you risk falling into the trap of being able to play pieces, but at a mediocre standard. I'm currently working on the Sor number 18 study from Opus 35 and the fragments that cause me the most trouble, the RH extensions when playing chords, would be a nightmare to improve just by banging away. Far more useful FOR ME to work down to the root of what my RH actually needs to be doing one step at a time, then I can put the LH back in. Again to reiterate, everyone is different and I'm sure there are people who play fine and have never touched an exercise.

dcarlso3
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Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby dcarlso3 » Fri Dec 03, 2010 3:18 pm

cjParsonson wrote:I'm currently working on the Sor number 18 study from Opus 35 and the fragments that cause me the most trouble, the RH extensions when playing chords, would be a nightmare to improve just by banging away. Far more useful FOR ME to work down to the root of what my RH actually needs to be doing one step at a time, then I can put the LH back in.



EXACTLY. So which exercise in Kitharologus is this? None. You have created the exact exercise that you need from the music rather than by shotgunning it with every exercise combination possible. In fact, what you have described is a reduction technique, ala Fernandez.

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:05 pm

cjParsonson wrote:I'm currently working on the Sor number 18 study from Opus 35 and the fragments that cause me the most trouble, the RH extensions when playing chords

Slightly OT but could you explain what you mean by RH extensions please?

Mark

pacifica

Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby pacifica » Sat Dec 04, 2010 4:53 am

Kitharologus - great stuff.

cjParsonson

Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby cjParsonson » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:41 am

dcarlso3 wrote:EXACTLY. So which exercise in Kitharologus is this? None. You have created the exact exercise that you need from the music rather than by shotgunning it with every exercise combination possible. In fact, what you have described is a reduction technique, ala Fernandez.


.... Good point!
I jotted this exercise down in Finale notepad and use it every few days now, so maybe I have the making of my own Kitharologus coming along! There are exercises in the book for extensions in the right hand however. I wanted to make my own because I could use the chords from the Sor study, just with the left hand removed, once I was happy with the right hand I could put the full chords back in. I've got to admit, I think this is a more engaging way to approach technical exercises, especially as you are doing the problem solving on your own. But if it was a technique I had no experience with, eg tremolo, I would prefer to consult a technical manual like Kitharologus first. Otherwise I would worry that the exercise I had created was not really beneficial. With the right hand extensions I was able to boil down the problem to its individual parts as it is a technique within my understanding.

And for the benefit of Mark what I meant by right hand extensions is playing a chord where the fingers are not playing adjacent strings, for example; p is playing the 6th string, i the 4th, m the 3rd and a the 1st. I find these kinds of chords tricky to play well so that every voice can be heard with clarity,

frank_fretwork

Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby frank_fretwork » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:52 am

p is playing the 6th string, i the 4th, m the 3rd and a the 1st. I find these kinds of chords tricky to play well so that every voice can be heard with clarity,


where does 'extension' come into that?

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Mark Clifton-Gaultier
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Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby Mark Clifton-Gaultier » Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:07 pm

cjParsonson wrote:And for the benefit of Mark what I meant by right hand extensions is playing a chord where the fingers are not playing adjacent strings, for example; p is playing the 6th string, i the 4th, m the 3rd and a the 1st. I find these kinds of chords tricky to play well so that every voice can be heard with clarity

Thanks - I understand.

Mark

paulcroft

Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby paulcroft » Mon Dec 06, 2010 10:41 pm

cjParsonson wrote:
And for the benefit of Mark what I meant by right hand extensions is playing a chord where the fingers are not playing adjacent strings, for example; p is playing the 6th string, i the 4th, m the 3rd and a the 1st. I find these kinds of chords tricky to play well so that every voice can be heard with clarity,


For what it's worth [given the response it obviously wasn't regarded as worth much at all when first posted] here's a thread from 2009 covering just this problem, and dealing with it via a set of r.h. permutations. You may find it useful, although it's all fairly obvious stuff.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=39924&p=426099&hilit=+right+hand+permutations#p426099

cjParsonson

Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby cjParsonson » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:48 pm

frank_fretwork wrote:where does 'extension' come into that?


I would call it an 'extension' because the fingers of the right hand must spread outwards from their basic position. I may be using a poor choice of terminology here and if so, I apologize. Just seemed right to me.


PaulCroft: Thanks for the thread! Just what I need at the moment, especially with the focus on contacting the strings, point of departure ect.
I have no doubt that it seems obvious to you and to a lot of people, but its not obvious to me. Its somethings I have to work on if I want all the voices of a chord to sound clearly.

another_dave

Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby another_dave » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:05 pm

Robin wrote: A year ago I had the opportunity to audition for eligibility for the completion of my music degree. I failed--and miserably. Not because I hadn't practiced endless hours, not because I hadn't performed these pieces in public before but because under the pressure of instense scrutiny, the underlying weaknesses of my technique caused me to lose confidence and it all fell apart.

I recently read a book called Bounce: the myth of talent and the power of practice. There is one chapter in the book titled 'The curse of choking, and how to avoid it'. The experience you describe sounds like a classic case.

The method used in sport to overcome this described in the book is:

In order to make all the sacrifices necessary to reach world class levels of performance, an athlete has to believe that performing well means everything. They have to cleave to the belief that wining an Olympic gold is of life-changing significance.

But that is precisely the belief that is most likely to trigger a choking response. So, the key psychological skill for someone with a tendency to choke is to ditch that belief in the minutes before competition and to replace it with the belief that the race does not really matter. It is a form of psychological manipulation'.

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Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby Robin » Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:03 am

another_dave wrote:
Robin wrote: A year ago I had the opportunity to audition for eligibility for the completion of my music degree. I failed--and miserably. Not because I hadn't practiced endless hours, not because I hadn't performed these pieces in public before but because under the pressure of instense scrutiny, the underlying weaknesses of my technique caused me to lose confidence and it all fell apart.

I recently read a book called Bounce: the myth of talent and the power of practice. There is one chapter in the book titled 'The curse of choking, and how to avoid it'. The experience you describe sounds like a classic case.

The method used in sport to overcome this described in the book is:

In order to make all the sacrifices necessary to reach world class levels of performance, an athlete has to believe that performing well means everything. They have to cleave to the belief that wining an Olympic gold is of life-changing significance.

But that is precisely the belief that is most likely to trigger a choking response. So, the key psychological skill for someone with a tendency to choke is to ditch that belief in the minutes before competition and to replace it with the belief that the race does not really matter. It is a form of psychological manipulation'.


The psychological games don't seem to fool me--I can quickly see through them. What seems to be helping move me forward is more of an "inside out" change. It is far from a quick fix and I have set backs but I'm slowly training myself to change my inner dialogue thus changing my inner landscape.

Incidentally, I successfully auditioned for and presented my recital for my degree completion in March of 2011. My performance was not perfect at all but I never once waivered from my musical purpose.

Now, back to the topic of opinions about Kitharologous....

Robin
So much music, so little time.

another_dave

Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby another_dave » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:00 am

Robin wrote:Incidentally, I successfully auditioned for and presented my recital for my degree completion in March of 2011. My performance was not perfect at all but I never once waivered from my musical purpose.

Excellent news! I'm glad you've found a strategy that works for you.

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby Denian Arcoleo » Thu Aug 11, 2011 8:14 am

With regard to the book mentioned above -'Bounce, the myth of talent and the power of practice', I had a quick look at the review. One phrase caught my eye:

''...Roger Federer is not blessed with extraordinarily sharp reactions: these skills were developed as a result of hard work and practice.''

Really? While we would very much like to think this is the case, it is, sadly, not so. Federer is for example blessed with extraordinarily sharp reactions (amongst other attributes such as sparkling footwork, almost telepathic anticipation and the simple ability to strike the ball better than anyone else). Okay, he's on the decline now, but at his peak he was, literally, unbeatable - age is the great leveler.
Whilst I wouldn't for one moment dispute the importance and necessity of hard work and practice (I'm quite sure Federer practiced just as many gazillions of hours as all the other tennis players) Federer did in fact have something a little special.
I think this principle can be applied in a wider sense when examining the spectrum of human ability in any given field. To suggest that everything is down to hard work flies in the face of the bare facts (tennis matches for example don't lie, they are very clear, the best man wins) and is, in my opinion, a form of political correctness.

FWIW, I like Kitharologus very much and have used it myself a fair amount.

another_dave

Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby another_dave » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:29 am

Denian Arcoleo wrote:Whilst I wouldn't for one moment dispute the importance and necessity of hard work and practice (I'm quite sure Federer practiced just as many gazillions of hours as all the other tennis players) Federer did in fact have something a little special.

I think this principle can be applied in a wider sense when examining the spectrum of human ability in any given field. To suggest that everything is down to hard work flies in the face of the bare facts (tennis matches for example don't lie, they are very clear, the best man wins) and is, in my opinion, a form of political correctness.

I don't want to derail the thread into a book review, but to address this point; the comparison was between amateur tennis players, who watch the ball and then react, and professionals who watch their opponents posture and react before the ball is struck.

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Denian Arcoleo
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Re: Your opinion about Kitharologus by R. Iznaola please.

Postby Denian Arcoleo » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:37 am

Okay, but my point still remains. Contrary to the quote from the book, Federer is in fact blessed with extraordinarily fast reactions (as well as the other attributes mentioned).


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